Bass cab farting… need help

[Al Kraft]

The boost and contour on the GK are very powerful, especially the boost. And the woofer (which on a GK is the main volume) at 11 o'clock? That's a huge amount of power on a 1001. I generally have my woofer lower than that on my 700 into two fifteens, and maybe only even get there at my loudest gigs.

Just curious if you're using this same cab and the same bass. I agree that these settings are a bit high, but I wonder if they would be considered high for his bass' input level and that cab. IIRC that Hartke is a sealed cab with serious power handing capability. It just seems hard to imagine those settings being so obviously problematic.

I just wonder if the actual problem is not from pushing something into clipping territory and the speakers are faithfully and competently reproducing that. However, starting at lower settings and with a more neutral EQ and working up to where the problem is showing up would be good place to start.

 

[DJ Bebop]

fdeck says that flat is +1 on the low mids and high mids and -2 on the treble and bass. The pictured eq is *more* scooped. Not less/flat.

+/- 1 or 2 is not extremely scooped -- I like the sound of the amp at noon, but this may be because I play Bag End 15's which are mid-forward, so my experience is more flat.

I was working from a bad memory and I didn't even look at the link I posted to refresh my bad memory

I'm surprised I got the fdeck part right!

PS I like the amp at noon as well but it has taken a side seat for a minute to a WD 800

 

[tvbop]

Few cabs can cope with bass boosted to the max. Its good to remember also that with all amps, bass fatness on stage is quadroupled out in the crowd (whatever the size). Lean and mean within reason on stage will give a cutting thump out in the room, ie don't boost bass.

 

[Standalone]

Just curious if you're using this same cab and the same bass. I agree that this settings are a bit high, but I wonder if they would be considered high for his bass' input level and that cab. IIRC that Hartke is a sealed cab with serious power handing capability. It just seems hard to imagine those settings being so obviously problematic.

I just wonder if the actual problem is not from pushing something into clipping territory and the speakers are faithfully and competently reproducing that. However, starting at lower settings and with a more neutral EQ and working up to where the problem is showing up would be good place to start.

No those settings are SO extreme that I'm certain my take is mostly correct. I have a Bag End 210 that I use in my rehearsal space; the character is different, but there is not any kind of extreme adjustment needed to go with 10's.

The bass cut and the contour way up mean that the OP is cutting 100-200 Hz but boosting UNDER 100Hz. That's a recipe for farting, because the deep subsonic lows are being cranked into that cab without it sounding to the OP like he's really loud enough.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Remember:

Bedroom sound

Live sound

 

[Al Kraft]

No those settings are SO extreme that I'm certain my take is mostly correct. I have a Bag End 210 that I use in my rehearsal space; the character is different, but there is not any kind of extreme adjustment needed to go with 10's.

The bass cut and the contour way up mean that the OP is cutting 100-200 Hz but boosting UNDER 100Hz. That's a recipe for farting, because the deep subsonic lows are being cranked into that cab without it sounding to the OP like he's really loud enough.

You could well be right. I play on the RB heads few times a year, but only own the MB heads these days. I took another look at the OPs settings and the manual (specs pasted in from the manual):

Output Power: Main Amp 1001RB-II 460W rms@ 8 Ohms 700W rms@ 4 Ohms
Equalizer: Bass +10dB @ 60Hz*, Lo-Mid +6dB/-10dB @ 250Hz, Hi-Mid +6dB/-10dB @ 1kHz, Treble +12/-17dB @ 7kHz.....* I suspect this might be a typo as the manual describes the control as cut and boost: Bass: Active shelving type control which boosts and cuts the low frequencies.
Voicing Filters: 4/5 String Bass +11dB@20Hz, Contour +2dB@50Hz / -10dB@500Hz / +3dB@7kHz, Presence +9dB@10kHz

I'll freely admit I've never run voicing settings settings like that on any GK RB head. However, that range for volume and master (woofer) are not at all unusual in gigs for me. Without the 4/5 String filter engaged (according to the OP) and assuming the head isn't being continually pushed beyond its maximum output I wouldn't expect the tone to be overly deep low focused. I would expect it to be upper register annoying and quite hollow in the mids with an oddly emphasized low end. The EQ settings on that very powerful tone stack are not overly emphasizing anything I even associate with key bass guitar frequencies.

With a full 700 Watts output from the GK head, each 10 " driver in the HyDrive 810 would be getting around 88 Watts and they are rated for 250 Watts. Now admittedly that rating is likely not a mechanical rating at 60 Hz or lower - I would assume it's a thermal rating. Still, the cab shouldn't be way outside its comfort zone. Despite its stated 25 HZ usable low end rating I'd be shocked if that wasn't an F10 and not better than F6 rating.

I do know that Hartke sealed cabs (my recent experience is with the 210XL) do get a little nasty sounding when pushed too hard in the low end at high power. So with only what I see here, I'm still having trouble with that 810 finding itself overdriven...although there is obviously something going wrong.

 

[Standalone]

You could well be right. I play on the RB heads few times a year, but only own the MB heads these days. I took another rook at the OPs settings and the manual (specs pasted in from the manual):

Output Power: Main Amp 1001RB-II 460W rms@ 8 Ohms 700W rms@ 4 Ohms
Equalizer: Bass +10dB @ 60Hz*, Lo-Mid +6dB/-10dB @ 250Hz, Hi-Mid +6dB/-10dB @ 1kHz, Treble +12/-17dB @ 7kHz.....* I suspect this might be a typo as the manual describes the control as cut and boost: Bass: Active shelving type control which boosts and cuts the low frequencies.
Voicing Filters: 4/5 String Bass +11dB@20Hz, Contour +2dB@50Hz / -10dB@500Hz / +3dB@7kHz, Presence +9dB@10kHz

I'll freely admit I've never run voicing settings settings like that on any GK RB head. However, that range for volume and master (woofer) are not at all unusual in gigs for me. Without the 4/5 String filter engaged (according to the OP) and assuming the head isn't being continually pushed beyond its maximum output I wouldn't expect the tone to be overly deep low focused. I would expect it to be upper register annoying and quite hollow in the mids with an oddly emphasized low end. The EQ settings on that very powerful tone stack are not overly emphasizing anything I even associate with key bass guitar frequencies.

With a full 700 Watts output from the GK head, each 10 " driver in the HyDrive 810 would be getting around 88 Watts and they are rated for 250 Watts. Now admittedly that rating is likely not a mechanical rating at 60 Hz or lower - I would assume it's a thermal rating. Still, the cab shouldn't be way outside its comfort zone. Despite its stated 25 HZ usable low end rating I'd be shocked if that wasn't an F10 and not better than F6 rating.

I do know that Hartke sealed cabs (my recent experience is with the 210XL) do get a little nasty sounding when pushed too hard in the low end at high power. So with only what I see here, I'm still having trouble with that 810 finding itself overdriven...although there is obviously something going wrong.

The response rating and the power handling are not the same thing. Throwing a ton of 40-60hz at a cab is gonna fart it out.

Most of my basses have hot passive pickups, so I run my gain volume closer to 9:00. But even my quieter basses would push a cab way too hard with those settings — and mine is the 700.

 

[shnapper]

I've never seen anyone run contour & presence maxed out like that?????

Anywho I think you're asking a bit much in the fart section and well you're inducing some fart… sssssmmmm ewwwww

I like my 700RBii at these settings…

 

[Jazzdogg]

Few cabs can cope with bass boosted to the max. Its good to remember also that with all amps, bass fatness on stage is quadroupled out in the crowd (whatever the size). Lean and mean within reason on stage will give a cutting thump out in the room, ie don't boost bass.

Your post reminds me that several decades ago, I came back from a break to find that the drummer had completely changed the EQ on my amp, boosting the deep bass and cutting everything else.
It sounded awful, both on stage and in the audience. He said he changed my settings because that's how he liked to hear the bass.

During the next break, I removed the snares from his snare drum, and de-tuned the head. The look on his face was priceless!

 

[Al Kraft]

The response rating and the power handling are not the same thing. Throwing a ton of 40-60hz at a cab is gonna fart it out.

I don't disagree and this is where I suspect you may be right on the money in what you're suggesting. High power, low frequency transients can easily exceed a driver's mechanical capabilities while not necessarily exceeding or even approaching thermal limits (i.e. typical single parameter speaker ratings).

You are most likely right, it's just that I'm having trouble with that head being too much for that cab. If we were talking about a single Hartke 210 XL, I would say hard hitting low notes over conversational volume at 1/4 of the cab's 200 Watt rating could easily result in some unpleasant over-excursion speaker sounds...I have firsthand experience with this using a 700RB into a 210 XL with a 4 string bass and relatively flat filter and EQ settings.

 

[Standalone]

I like my 700RBii at these settings…

My settings are similar, except no tweeter.

 

[Al Kraft]

Your post reminds me that several decades ago, I came back from a break to find that the drummer had completely changed the EQ on my amp, boosting the deep bass and cutting everything else.
It sounded awful, both on stage and in the audience. He said he changed my settings because that's how he liked to hear the bass.

During the next break, I removed the snares from his snare drum, and de-tuned the head. The look on his face was priceless!

....from an audience perspective let me just say that I'm glad I missed that show!

 

[OogieWaWa]

Outside the box answer, high probability of being correct:

One note in particular, you say? The G?

Something in/on the cabinet is buzzing sympathetically with that frequency. Besides that silly boost and contour setting, which make it worse.

I had a cab do that at anything over mid volume. Was driving me nuts. Looked at all the connections inside and out, took out the driver and the crossover, made sure no wires were touching, no coil/housing rubbing. Still there. By accident I leaned on a corner of the cab, on the plastic corner piece, and it stopped!!!!!

Here when they screwed the cabinet together, the plywood delaminated and broke along the grain at the screw when tightened, leaving a little 3/16"x1/2" "flap" one layer thick at the very corner. Which the corner cover did NOT restrict from moving. And being designed to enhance sound waves, the cab took that and made it LOUD!! I glued that little flap down and problem gone, never to come back.

 

[Standalone]

You are most likely right, it's just that I'm having trouble with that head being too much for that cab.

I sort of picked up on that from
Your wording. Too much is too much, even with an 810. I think OP is just chasing a mega scooped tone and missing out on where the real volume and punch is.

 

[Al Kraft]

I sort of picked up on that from
Your wording. Too much is too much, even with an 810. I think OP is just chasing a mega scooped tone and missing out on where the real volume and punch is.

Shnapper's 700 post above looks very much like the neighborhood where I find the GK sound I like. Depending on the bass I'm using I may bump the low mid a tad more and drop the treble a touch. The OP is certainly in extreme tone shaping territory I've never explored or needed...and has created problems I've never experienced with high volume on a big cab.

 

[Al Kraft]

Outside the box answer, high probability of being correct:

One note in particular, you say? The G?

Something in/on the cabinet is buzzing sympathetically with that frequency. Besides that silly boost and contour setting, which make it worse.

I had a cab do that at anything over mid volume. Was driving me nuts. Looked at all the connections inside and out, took out the driver and the crossover, made sure no wires were touching, no coil/housing rubbing. Still there. By accident I leaned on a corner of the cab, on the plastic corner piece, and it stopped!!!!!

Here when they screwed the cabinet together, the plywood delaminated and broke along the grain at the screw when tightened, leaving a little 3/16"x1/2" "flap" one layer thick at the very corner. Which the corner cover did NOT restrict from moving. And being designed to enhance sound waves, the cab took that and made it LOUD!! I glued that little flap down and problem gone, never to come back.

It wouldn't be the first time I've seen something like this either. Good suggestion!

And to jump in Standalone's mindset for a moment, those extreme settings could easily exacerbate a problem like this.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Since you have the Contour maxed boosting bass and treble and scooping mids AND your hearing farting sounds, you are probably driving the speaker beyond its excursion limits. I would suggest you turn that contour off entirely, set your EQ at flat (whatever that is with your amp) and start making adjustments slowly with your EQ section. And for heaven's sake don't engage the 4/5 button to give you an 11db boost at 20Hz. That will absolutely run your speakers beyond their excursion limits. You want to avoid that farting sound. That farting sound from your speakers is a very bad thing and unless you stop if from doing that right away (don't wait for the end of the song) you are likely to damage if not outright blow those speakers.

Also, when you are playing around with your EQ, the low-mids are your friend. They give your presence and definition when playing in a group. It's not always the best sound to your ears when playing by yourself, but it really makes a difference in the mix. If you've never adjusted that before, leave everything else flat and the contour off entirely. Then slowly add boost in the low mids until your sound honks at you. You don't want that honk, so slowly turn that down until the honk disappears. If you think you need more bass in your sound, use the Bass EQ and turn it up slowly until you get to what you like. If you absolutely MUST use the contour, try not to turn it above 9 o'clock and then be prepared to boost your low-mids EQ because that contour scoops the low mids right out.

I'm a little confused by your bi-amp controls. Usually bi-amp controls are for sending separate frequency mixes to the woofer and the tweeter and I wouldn't expect that to be used with your 810. However I see that you have boost in that section and it's up at 1 o'clock, the tweeter is turned off and the woofer is up around 11 o'clock. Do you have that engaged? If so, it looks like you are only sending the low frequencies out with it, which could be part of your problem. Can you engage the boost there without sending separate bi-amp signals out to your cabs? Just not familiar enough with GK preamps so it's got me wondering.

With any other amp capable of bi-amping there is a adjustable crossover so you can adjust how much of your signal goes to each, the low cab and the high cab. Also, I don't see a crossover control for the bi-amping. Do you know what frequency it shifts to sending the signal to the tweeter? I really wouldn't expect to see that section engaged unless that's the only place you can get some boost, because you really want the complete frequency spectrum to go to your Harke 810.

 

[Al Kraft]

I'm a little confused by your bi-amp controls. Usually bi-amp controls are for sending separate frequency mixes to the woofer and the tweeter and I wouldn't expect that to be used with your 810. However I see that you have boost in that section and it's up at 1 o'clock, the tweeter is turned off and the woofer is up around 11 o'clock. Do you have that engaged? If so, it looks like you are only sending the low frequencies out with it, which could be part of your problem. Can you engage the boost there without sending separate bi-amp signals out to your cabs? Just not familiar enough with GK preamps so it's got me wondering.

In the case of the GK RB heads the woofer is the full range master. The bi-amp active crossover, amplifiers, and unique speaker outputs are designed to work with GK bi-amp (aka Horn Management System (HMS)) compatible cabs. In this case (with a non-GK bi-amp compatible cab) there is only a full range signal and the woofer control acts as the master. The Boost can be engaged as a post EQ gain stage feature prior to the power amp(s).

 

[Wasnex]

i don't have the 4/5 engaged. I am using Spector 5 string basses with it.

What sort of boost are you running on the bass?

 

[Rip Van Dan]

In the case of the GK RB heads the woofer is the full range master. The bi-amp active crossover, amplifiers, and unique speaker outputs are designed to work with GK bi-amp (aka Horn Management System (HMS)) compatible cabs. In this case (with a non-GK bi-amp compatible cab) there is only a full range signal and the woofer control acts as the master. The Boost can be engaged as a post EQ gain stage feature prior to the power amp(s).

Thanks Al!
So the boost works almost like a Gain and the woofer acts as a Master? And how does the volume knob on that first section fit into this?