bass cables!!!

[MaccaMan1964]

Hi! Aside from being a bass player, I am an avid audiophile. Hi-end audio cables have been the source of MANY, MANY emails from both sides of the argument - ARE THEY WORTH IT? I put this argument in that same category.

AT the end of the day, I believe it boils down to what the playing environment is. If you're playing outside, in a bar - heck, in just about ANY live environment, any external noise is going to extinguish ANY sound difference a cable to your bass would make.

IF you're in a recording studio, then it's all about what you (or your sound engineer's) ear tells you. Sort of like the old "Beauty is in the eyes....". If you can hear the difference and it matters to you, buy that cable. If you can't or you dont care, don't.

For the GREAT majority of us, any hi-quality cable will do the job. What I personally look for is solid construction AND a great warranty. What I found (that I am now using) out at Guitar Center is that the Mogami cables have a lifetime warranty - but FAR more important - if you bring the bad cable back to a GC store - you will get a new one FREE!! And the fact they have stores in lots of places - that made a whole lot of good sense to me. So, that made my decision.

So, hope this helped. You got lots of good feedback...

Take care,
Paul

 

[SGD Lutherie]

 

[warnergt]

...for a 20 foot cable I get around 0.2 nF

so lets make a rc filter out of that.

the cutoff frequency of a rc filter is

Fc=1/2piRC

so after some quick research and amp input is usualy 3.9 Mohms...

so the formula is

FC= 1/2(3.14)(3.9x10^6)(0.2x10^-9)

The 'R' value for this calculation is flawed.

The RC calculation is for a series resistance combined with a capacitance to ground. You should be using the pickup output impedance for this calculation; not the amplifier input impedance. Using your method, an infinite amplifier input impedance would drop the cutoff frequency to zero; this simply isn't how it works.

Pickup impedances commonly run around 7000 ohms (they can even be found as low as 100 ohms). Substituting the 7000 ohm figure, the correct cutoff frequency is 113682 Hz (113 kHz).

 

[Craig Garfinkel]

Hi! Aside from being a bass player, I am an avid audiophile. Hi-end audio cables have been the source of MANY, MANY emails from both sides of the argument - ARE THEY WORTH IT? I put this argument in that same category.

AT the end of the day, I believe it boils down to what the playing environment is. If you're playing outside, in a bar - heck, in just about ANY live environment, any external noise is going to extinguish ANY sound difference a cable to your bass would make.

IF you're in a recording studio, then it's all about what you (or your sound engineer's) ear tells you. Sort of like the old "Beauty is in the eyes....". If you can hear the difference and it matters to you, buy that cable. If you can't or you dont care, don't.

For the GREAT majority of us, any hi-quality cable will do the job. What I personally look for is solid construction AND a great warranty. What I found (that I am now using) out at Guitar Center is that the Mogami cables have a lifetime warranty - but FAR more important - if you bring the bad cable back to a GC store - you will get a new one FREE!! And the fact they have stores in lots of places - that made a whole lot of good sense to me. So, that made my decision.

So, hope this helped. You got lots of good feedback...

Take care,
Paul

This post is sticky-worthy. Hope you don't mind my adding bold for emphasis of your best (IMO) point Paul. Although I'd also say that included in that external noise on any gig is all the other instruments, and that alone will completely nullify any infinitesimal "improvement" of tone a cable might make.

I would also add that even in the recording studio, once you add the bass to the mix and don't have it soloed, any noticeable difference in sound attributable to any cable will be just as lost as on a live gig.

 

[ehque]

Signal loss is an issue with anything over any lengths of wire. Even cable TV. Why would you say such nonsense? Did you ever hear of a repeater? If you have poor quality cable going to your DSL or cable modem, you will not get the highest speeds.

By definition you are saying, get a better cable for my cable modem, and my speeds will increase. I'm not saying that capacitance and all that jazz are not important. I'm saying that even the most moderately priced cable is GOOD ENOUGH. Sure, there might be a difference, and it might even be audible. But really, it's close enough for government work.

Lets look at some facts. It's established that audio cables should be low capacitance. Everyone in the industry knows this. So all these companies making the cables you buy try to use low capacitance wire. Why? High capacitance cable shunts the high end of the signal, and yes, it does this at audio frequencies.

If TV companies are going digital and ISPs are building repeater stations (and i know they are, i'm not arguing with you here) then the appropriate, related, solution here is to go active on our basses. You don't see TV cable companies laying out gold/silver cables on the seabed, so why should we buy into the cable hype?

 

[warnergt]

Let me add one more note. It is possible to compute the total capacitance of a cable by multiplying the capacitance per foot by the total feet. However, attaching a 20 foot cable with a distributed capacitance of 0.2 nF is not equivalent to attaching a 0.2 nF capacitor to the source. The distributed capacitance combined with the lead inductance create a transmission line which actually can hide the capacitance from the source. So you have to be careful how far you apply this RC calculation.

This is how cables with 0.2 nF are able to carry signals almost losslessly well into the hundreds of megahertz despite that so-called 113 kHz cutoff frequency. With proper matching, the input to the cable can look purely resistive to the source.

Of course, with the high impedance seen at the input to an amplifier, this RC calculation (113 kHz) is probably a reasonable approximation.

 

[Jonyak]

The 'R' value for this calculation is flawed.

The RC calculation is for a series resistance combined with a capacitance to ground. You should be using the pickup output impedance for this calculation; not the amplifier input impedance. Using your method, an infinite amplifier input impedance would drop the cutoff frequency to zero; this simply isn't how it works.

Pickup impedances commonly run around 7000 ohms (they can even be found as low as 100 ohms). Substituting the 7000 ohm figure, the correct cutoff frequency is 113682 Hz (113 kHz).

sweet.. thanks.. so the filter effect is well out of the audible range. I was wondering what side you would use for your R component. I was also surprised at how low my values came out to.

 

[Mark Reccord]

Let me add one more note. It is possible to compute the total capacitance of a cable by multiplying the capacitance per foot by the total feet. However, attaching a 20 foot cable with a distributed capacitance of 0.2 nF is not equivalent to attaching a 0.2 nF capacitor to the source. The distributed capacitance combined with the lead inductance create a transmission line which actually can hide the capacitance from the source. So you have to be careful how far you apply this RC calculation.

This is how cables with 0.2 nF are able to carry signals almost losslessly well into the hundreds of megahertz despite that so-called 113 kHz cutoff frequency. With proper matching, the input to the cable can look purely resistive to the source.

Of course, with the high impedance seen at the input to an amplifier, this RC calculation (113 kHz) is probably a reasonable approximation.

You can't ignore the inductance of the pickups either. As in most audio systems, signal transmission between basses and amps is based on voltage transfer rather than power transfer so you're not likely to ever encounter well matched impedances. The system's almost always going to be terminated in an impedance at least 10x the source impedance, so it's safe enough to assume that the cable capacitance is close enough to being a cap at the end of the cable shunting to ground. In general, you don't need yer Smith Chart for sorting out transmission stuff in audio systems.

 

[Mark Reccord]

sweet.. thanks.. so the filter effect is well out of the audible range. I was wondering what side you would use for your R component. I was also surprised at how low my values came out to.

It's not uncommon for the values of cable capacitance, pickup DCR and pickup inductance to bring it down into the audible range though as per my plots. The impedance of the pickup that I used was 11.6k Ohms DCR and 3.8 Henries. Those values combined with the cables I used quite clearly brought the LPF into the audible range.

 

[ggunn]

I've got a raft of cables all makes, models, lengths. They all sound exactly the same to me. YMMV.

 

[slyjoe]

Gotta be the henries.

And that HAS to be the first reference to a Smith chart in TB history.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

By definition you are saying, get a better cable for my cable modem, and my speeds will increase. I'm not saying that capacitance and all that jazz are not important. I'm saying that even the most moderately priced cable is GOOD ENOUGH. Sure, there might be a difference, and it might even be audible. But really, it's close enough for government work.

I used to do government work... they insisted on mil spec parts! Did they need it? Maybe not.

What's "good enough" is subjective. I use a moderately priced cable. But I also play active basses for the most part. The Spectraflex sounds good to my ears. That doesn't mean that a more expensive cable wouldn't sound better, but I haven't yet gone that route. I needed a new cable before a gig, and picked the best one they had. I do know if I didn't like the tone of the cable I wouldn't use it. I have one of those cloth covered "clothes iron" cables I picked up once, and it sounds like crap. It's dull and lifeless. But it sounds OK plugged into my old Oberheim synth.

If it's not audible, then there is no improvement. But all the shoot outs and reviews I have been reading say it's very audible, and some people might find that important.

To some people the stock pickups in their bass are good enough, to others they aren't. I know for myself after playing for almost 40 years, I wasn't finding any basses I really liked, so I designed my own, and later when I was unhappy with the pickups I was using, spent two years designing my own too.

So it all depends on what you want out of your gear. If you play though an SVT a high end cable probably wont do squat for you. If you play though an Avalon preamp and a QSC poweramp, etc, than it might.

The thing about the DSL... I had my DSL provider out to check wiring on the house, and gave me a bunch of the interior telephone cable to replace what I had in place, which was more flexible. He said the solid conductor stuff would get better speeds, and he was right. The reason was too much loss through the cable. And it's only about 30 feet long.

If TV companies are going digital and ISPs are building repeater stations (and i know they are, i'm not arguing with you here) then the appropriate, related, solution here is to go active on our basses. You don't see TV cable companies laying out gold/silver cables on the seabed, so why should we buy into the cable hype?

Well you do see them laying fiber-optic cable right? That side steps the electromagnetic issues.

Yes, an active bass just about eliminates the problem. And that proves there is a real tangible issue with some cables. But many people don't like active basses.

You can't automatically call it hype.

Hype implies extravagant claims, that often exaggerate its importance or benefits. But if a lot of pro musicians are testing these cables for review in magazines, and are saying, yes, they do sound better in some cases, that's not really hype.

Some claims, like the skin effect at audio frequencies, are controversial. But a lot of it just makes common sense.

 

[ggunn]

The resistance of the wire makes a difference too, and lower resistance cables will pass more low frequencies.

Not correct. Resistance is not a reactive impedance, which is to say it behaves the same way to DC and AC and has no frequency dependency.

 

[stewart8980]

I use the planet Waves Cables, and they have a lifetime warranty

same, only problem with mine is that the little colored rubber things i pu on them (that came with the cable) always falls off.

But as a plus they have a mute button on one of the tips.

 

[derrenleepoole]

WOW! I go away for a couple of hours and this thread has jumped to 80+ posts. Anyway, I mentioned earlier that Bass Guitar Magazine ran an article about leads, and I mentioned some specific ones that carry a signal a certain way, this in turn raised eyebrows and the like. I've now found the article. Here are some quotes from the mag (issue Mar/Apr 2008 pgs 36/37) about a couple of the 'directional' leads they tested:

Monster Studio Pro 1000 (£1200 for 6 metres!)
"Monster's Pro 1000 studio lead is a directional cable. It is claimed by some very reputable makers that the construction of the cable enables the signal to pass more effectively one way in preference to the other way along the lead. This means the user must always use it the correct way around..."

Evidence Audio Lyric HG (£54)
This cable features colour coded Nuetrik connectors and dual core conductors to avoid using the shield as a connection to the negative end of the plug. One connector is coded red and this must be inserted into the amplifier or destination of the signal..."

Interestingly, the article doesn't go into too much technical data. Nor does it back up or support some of its claims. I'm of they opinion that a really good quality lead could improve your tone, but more importantly give you better longevity if taken care of.

 

[Jonyak]

It's not uncommon for the values of cable capacitance, pickup DCR and pickup inductance to bring it down into the audible range though as per my plots. The impedance of the pickup that I used was 11.6k Ohms DCR and 3.8 Henries. Those values combined with the cables I used quite clearly brought the LPF into the audible range.

I should bring my cables all into work and sweep them with the 200,000$ VNA we have in the lab. that will clear it all up.

 

[cnltb]

I wish I had the $350+ I foolishly spent on a Van den Hul and a TaraLabs cable. Yes, I spent that much for two cables. Complete waste of money. Both are too bulky and stiff for practical stage use and the sonic differences were so insignificant as to be totally useless in a live band situation, which is where it matters most. Oh and I also bought some Evidence Audio speaker cables (another $200 or so), and there is absolutely ZERO difference between them and the cheapest Musician's Friend specials I could find. I switch back and forth from time to time to remind myself what a putz I was.

I did all this ridiculous spending to answer for myself the questions argued in the infamous, completely unsatisfying and mercifully closed "TaraLabs Challenge Thread".

I do hear distinct differences. I suppose it has something to do not only with the cables but with the amp(s ) as well, as to how much of a difference you percieve.
I guess that the more "sensitive" or "open" sounding, your equipment is, the more you'll hear.

 

[Ampeg SVT]

This reminds me of the time when bass player magazine did reviews for cables, its ridiculous.

 

[Jonyak]

I think the ear can selectively hear a difference when there is a lot of money involved.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Evidence Audio Lyric HG (£54)
This cable features colour coded Nuetrik connectors and dual core conductors to avoid using the shield as a connection to the negative end of the plug. One connector is coded red and this must be inserted into the amplifier or destination of the signal..."

That was the one they tested at Bass Player.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

It doesn't say it in that PDF, but in the one shootout I read they commented hearing a difference in the cable if plugged in the other way.

I don't know about the Monster, but the Lyric has the shield connected on just one end.