bass cables!!!

[SGD Lutherie]

And the next line should be "but if you can hear the difference (or at least think you can), then even though you still don't need them (because no one else can hear the difference) you should definitely buy them anyway."

Or you can say, "why play a Sadowsky... lets all play the exact same Jazz Bass and use the same strings and amp..." since no one can hear the difference.



Oh and Mac OS X is better than Windows!

 

[Craig Garfinkel]

Or you can say, "why play a Sadowsky... lets all play the exact same Jazz Bass and use the same strings and amp..." since no one can hear the difference.



Oh and Mac OS X is better than Windows!

You know that's not what I'm saying or even remotely alluding to. Equating an instrument cable with a bass or amp (or speaker cab or effect or just about any other piece of gear) in regards to the relevant (or proportional) effect on tone is so silly, that it illustrates the complete silliness of these high end cable "arguments".

 

[ehque]

Bass guitar line-level signal = ANALOG

Digital, packet switched distributed network ("Intarweb") = NOT Analog.

You fail. Apples != Meatloaf.

Bonus question: What is the theoretical frequency response of your average vinyl turntable vs. a 44.1kHz, 16-bit CD?

You DO realise that a digital signal is really high frequency, if you punched it into a freq analyser? Now, since cheap cables kill your high end...?

 

[slyjoe]

I'm going to forget about it - if you don't know the difference between digital and analog, you shouldn't be calling people out about a fail.

 

[Honk'n_down-low]

FWIW, At about 5:25 into this video there is a comparison of a Phil Jones Cable to a standard - there is a definate sound difference here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or-tKELedDo

 

[SGD Lutherie]

You know that's not what I'm saying or even remotely alluding to.

Yes, hence the

But still, there are many means to an end, to one person it's using the same bass everyone else uses, to another it's ultra high end hi-fi.

In the end, they still reached the end. We have to make our own ears happy, even if we are the only ones appreciating the tone.

Some people might hear a difference in the cables and think, so what? It's not worth $150. Some others might have found bliss.

 

[cnltb]

Some amazing stuff here. The bottom line is

1) that the cables CAN influence the sound, not just frequency response, but group delays that cause the harmonics to be shifted.
2) Cost is not a determining factor in cable and sound quality.
3) Guitar cables are not the same thing as hi-fi interconnects or speaker cables - they are more like test instrument cables.
4) They will sound different with different instruments and different amps as the source and load impedances vary.
5) Ultimately - the lowest capacitance per foot is desirable. The best I've seen are the Elixirs - they are 10 pF per foot - and will cause the least sound degradation. Lesser quality cables are 30-70 pF per foot.

This is not the speaker cable hoo-ha that Monster and the rest have been spouting for years - this is a fact.

ALSO - a better cable from your DSL box to your DSL modem WILL increase your data rate. There are articles about how to use RJ-45 cable as a super phone cord with multiple twisted pairs direct from the telco drop to get a better quality signal to your modem = less error correction.

Should impedance and resistance not be included into the list of determining factors when discussing a cables' performance?

 

[eggcrate]

This thread has been very interesting indeed! However there is only one point that needs to be stated about audio cables:

Unless you have done a fully blind A/B then you have absolutely no ground to claim $1000 cables are better than $50 cables. The human mind is incredibly good at fooling itself into hearing things that aren't there.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

That's very true, however with the Bass Player and Premier Guitar reviews, there were some expensive cables that they didn't like. They thought some had a harsh top end, or an overly muted top end, etc. So they really did seem to be very objective.

They liked a lot of the run-of-the-mill cables, and didn't like some of the others.

They never really said "this sounds better than..", they usually described the tone the best they could, and what they liked and didn't like, offset by the price. And maybe they thought a cable as too stiff and bulky.

Bottom line seems to be that some people hear things others don't, not that it makes their hearing better than the other person.

There was a double blind test done with FET verses op amp buffers once. You read a lot of opinions that discrete components sound better than op amps. So this test was to see if anyone could tell the difference:

(emphasis added to show the majority of people do hear a difference, but it's just that, a difference, not a preference)

Lutherie Myth/Science: A Listening Evaluation of Discrete vs Integrated Circuit Audio Preamplifiers in Stringed Musical Instruments

Abstract
Audio preamplifier circuitry is increasingly used in electric guitars and electric bass guitars. A general preference for circuits built using discrete solid state components vs integrated circuit operational amplifiers appears to be building within the user community for these instruments. A double blind experiment was conducted to determine if users showed a preference between a JFET discrete component preamp and an opamp preamp following a listening evaluation. Results indicate no clear preference for either type.

Results
The experiment was unblinded and the questionnaires tabulated with the following results. Two (2) subjects found the tone of the discrete FET preamp preferable. Two (2) subjects found the tone of the opamp preamp preferable. Five (5) subjects found the sound identical in both preamps. Five (5) subjects found the two preamps sounded different but that neither one was superior in tone. As the data are so obviously distributed normally about the mean no additional statistical evaluations were performed. Subjects that indicated a preference also indicated that perceived differences were very subtle.

Conclusions
The majority of subjects (8) found no preference between the two circuits and preference was evenly divided among the remainder. As a result it is reasonable to conclude that it is unlikely that either the discrete component circuit or the opamp circuit tested would result in any sonic advantage in a bass guitar preamp intended to appeal to a large user base. From the results of this experiment it is tempting to extend this conclusion to include all such simple preamps of these two classes. Doing so would depend on the extent to which the compared circuits are representative of discrete JFET and opamp preamp circuits in general. One factor in favor of considering the tested circuits as representative of their types is that the two circuits were chosen effectively at random.

 

[Bassamatic]

Should impedance and resistance not be included into the list of determining factors when discussing a cables' performance?

Of course these are issues, but the capacitance is the most critical and hardest to control, and along with the resistance (which is the easiest) and the inductance, create the impedance of the cable.

 

[1kinal]

Here's a little experiment I did sometime ago:

http://www.martinletendre.com/cables.html

I compared:

-Bayou
-Monster Bass
-Zaolla
-Planet Waves

using 4 different basses of all prices. I recommend to download the clips and putting them in a playlist to better hear the (subtle) differences.

Long story short...I use Bayou!

 

[Jarno]

I'm using some ancient Spectraflex "toaster cords" but beggining to see some noise creep into the signal chain. Somebody gave me a really nice Planet Waves cable (one end is marked as shielded) and I've been happy so far.

Riis

Snip about 10cm off each end and resolder the connectors, assuming the cable was always curled in a sufficient bend radius, it's as good as new, and the noise should be gone.

Regards,

Jarno.

 

[Mark Reccord]

FWIW, At about 5:25 into this video there is a comparison of a Phil Jones Cable to a standard - there is a definate sound difference here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or-tKELedDo

There's also a difference in gain. The PJB cable clips are louder than the regular cable clips with more distortion. This is not a cable phenomenon unless there was something drastically wrong with the regular cable. He should have also played the same lick for both. I'm not certain that the playing field was level here. I remain skeptical, but as always, I will stop short of condemning it because I haven't had the chance to audition the PJB cables myself.

 

[warnergt]

Unless you have done a fully blind A/B then you have absolutely no ground to claim $1000 cables are better than $50 cables. The human mind is incredibly good at fooling itself into hearing things that aren't there.

Even if you performed the A/B test and found them to be different, how do you decide which one is better?

Furthermore, what if I performed the A/B test and found one cable to have more highs but also found that I could easily compensate for the other cable with a small twist of the tone knob? Would the more expensive cable still be worth it?

 

[cnltb]

Even if you performed the A/B test and found them to be different, how do you decide which one is better?

Furthermore, what if I performed the A/B test and found one cable to have more highs but also found that I could easily compensate for the other cable with a small twist of the tone knob? Would the more expensive cable still be worth it?

1) Taste
2) for some it would , for some it wouldn't

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Even if you performed the A/B test and found them to be different, how do you decide which one is better?

That's what I was saying. In tests, people found them to sound different, and they might prefer one over another, but that's personal preference.

I guess if you suddenly got a tone you hadn't been able to get with your old cord and EQ tweaking, then it's worth it. But only you can decide that.

I think that's the premise behind the marketing thing, that if you can't hear a difference, you don't need it.

We can say the same thing about strings. Every string maker makes claims about how they make their strings, and about the tone, longevity, etc. In the end you either like them, or you don't. As much as I can't stand certain brands of strings, people still use them and like the way they sound.

So there is no wrong or right, or better or worse. But I appreciate that these people are trying something new. Designing a new product and manufacturing it is a lot of work, and it's expensive. I know ths from first hand experience!

There are easier ways to make money than making claims that they don't believe. Some of these cables are very elaborate, and they have to have custom wire made for them. Surely if they didn't believe that they made an improvement of some kind they wouldn't go through all that trouble! It's just not worth it. And if people didn't find some value in these cables they wouldn't buy them.

I don't buy that it's just because the cables cost more that people are suckered into thinking they sound good! I have tried some very expensive amps that get rave reviews, and though they were rubbish!

So if you think you hear a difference, you probably do. If that difference matters to you, then that's a legitimate reason to purchase something.

 

[Jonyak]

You put it very well...

even if I don't think there is a difference, I guess if some people do hear one and want to spend there money on it... more to them.

 

[Hoover]

Unless you have done a fully blind A/B then you have absolutely no ground to claim $1000 cables are better than $50 cables. The human mind is incredibly good at fooling itself into hearing things that aren't there.

Bravo! I'm amazed it took seven freakin' pages about "the difference in cable sound" before someone brought up the concept of Expectation Bias and The Placebo Effect, but Bravo! nonetheless!

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Bravo! I'm amazed it took seven freakin' pages about "the difference in cable sound" before someone brought up the concept of Expectation Bias and The Placebo Effect, but Bravo! nonetheless!

Did you read my post? It pretty much nullifies this concept, at least from pro reviewers. When a reviewer states that an expensive cable has a harsh top end, and they prefer something else, that disproves the placebo effect (which is not what this is anyway).

Good try though.

 

[Jonyak]

Bravo! I'm amazed it took seven freakin' pages about "the difference in cable sound" before someone brought up the concept of Expectation Bias and The Placebo Effect, but Bravo! nonetheless!

I brought this up quite a while ago.