BASS DI OR NOT

[fokof]

The reason I prefer to pass in a DI instead of my Amp is ..... well ..... I don't have an Amp!
(I have a monitor)

As a soundman , I will always prefer a DI because
- If it's POST , 100% of the time , the EQ doesn't fit in the PA.
I don't see what's so tough to understand that a 4X10 cab and a full blown PA don't not sound the same. Some bass players don't get this.

- I've encoutered lots of hissing/buzzing/cracking head (no puns intended). A DI and problem solved.


-Once in a while , I get a bass player who knows his Shtick and has a good sounding rig , but it is not the majority , sadly.

BTW , if I'm hired by the band and the bass player tells me to put 11 mikes on his cab and one on his music stand :
No problems ! I can mike your gig bag too if you want.....

 

[JimmyM]

I'm just about at the point where I've decided that a good microphone would be easier, even if it doesn't sound good. Who cares? It's not going to sound right through the DI anyway, the amount of grit I'm running, and even a nice condenser mic will be lighter, cheaper, and less complicated than all that other crap. When's the last time I listened to a recording of my own band where I could hear the bass over the kick drum anyway? At least it'll *look* expensive...

i wouldn't get a condenser for live work. too sensitive and prone to bleed. they're also usually more delicate. i'd get a dynamic like an re-20 or a pr 40. a beyer m88 or a heil pr 35 would be good if you wanted something lighter, but hard to beat an re-20 for a live bass cab mic.

 

[jmeyers44]

I recently became a DI guy in the last 8 months. Playing mostly at church the IEM thing is very popular and quite addicting for me. I bought a Radial JDV to use. I've been playing for 14 years and have never gotten a more positive response on my tone as I have recieved since I went to DI. The soundguys I've talked to love that I give them a pure sound.

 

[melarson]

Although, when you see my rig you know it's got a 99.9999% chance of not failing halfway through the set.

"So you're saying there's a chance..."

I've never had anyone not take the DI from my amp, but if they tried to step and do that, we'd have some words. Although, when you see my rig you know it's got a 99.9999% chance of not failing halfway through the set. Other amps (if it's competent soundguy, anyway) maybe he'd be more suspect of.
For most non-entry level SS/hybrid heads, especially if it has Post or Pre options, it shouldn't be an issue. That's a little too nitpicky for me.

I will never understand this attitude. I have not been playing bass nearly as long as I have be doing sound. Now I do sound primarily in a House of Worship so let's put that out there right away. What do you have to say when you "want your tone" and "we're gonna have words" if I ask you to set up different and your "tone" sounds like poo FOH? Why don't you let the sound guy do his job?

When the worship team that I run sound for plays outside of the church the bassist plays through an SVT-CL head. I have yet to find a way to get a clean feed from it. If it is free of static it's picking up radio. Is that a cheap or substandard head? Some may say yes but that's a whole nother thread!

All this ranting and raving about sound guys being so incompetent starting to sound like the people in this thread! http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f32/dumb-craigs-list-ads-thread-556036/ You know, the ones that say "You play bass; shut up, play what you're told, no we don't want your opinion and no you won't get paid because I'm the talent in this operation."

When your tone is such that it drives the volume and/or the feel of the group, you are harming the group.

And to the OP, it depends on too many variables to give a definitive answer for all situations/equipment. My preference would be from the head.

 

[BigMac5]

The soundguys I've talked to love that I give them a pure sound.

What is a pure sound anyways? The sound coming out of the amp is impure?

 

[jmeyers44]

What is a pure sound anyways? The sound coming out of the amp is impure?

Sorry, poor choice of words. What I should of said was a flat tone. And yes I realize that I could of did pre EQ on my amp but since I went to IEM I also wanted to downsize my rig so I went to DI. It was a lot of big changes at once.

 

[projectMalamute]

and once again I have failed to resist the urge to post in one of these threads.

All this ranting and raving about sound guys being so incompetent starting to sound like the people in this thread!

Do you know why people rant and rave about sound techs? It's crap like this:

When the worship team that I run sound for plays outside of the church the bassist plays through an SVT-CL head. I have yet to find a way to get a clean feed from it. If it is free of static it's picking up radio. Is that a cheap or substandard head? Some may say yes but that's a whole nother thread!

You claim to be an experienced tech and are flummoxed by the single most common bass amp in professional use ever. Seriously man, it's an SVT. Solve the problem. That's your job.

Here's a tip: I get those things like every third band, I find if you stick an RE20 in front of it and push up the fader you can usually move on to worrying about something else.

also:

When your tone is such that it drives the volume and/or the feel of the group, you are harming the group.

This premise is ********. Here is a short list of bands with distinctive bass sounds that drive the feel of the group:

Yes, Rush, Weather Report, Graham Central Station, Funkadelic, Shellac, the Birthday Party, Iron Maiden, Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, Young Widows, the Jesus Lizard...

I could go on.

 

[melarson]

This premise is ********. Here is a short list of bands with distinctive bass sounds that drive the feel of the group:

Yes, Rush, Weather Report, Graham Central Station, Funkadelic, Shellac, the Birthday Party, Iron Maiden, Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, Young Widows, the Jesus Lizard...

I could go on.

I guess that would be why I said I did sound in a House of Worship. In your typical dive bar on up to a full on stadium this may not really be an issue. When the Bass is turned all the way up on the his Stingray (his tone) and the volume of the cab is so loud and it requires the overall volume to be too loud. People get a little worked up when they leave church with ringing ears.

A band determining the artistic direction they want to go is not what I was talking about, but I'm sure you could have figured that out if you paused to think about what I wrote. One instrument in the band playing too loudly because he wants the "tone" of his amp rather than it through FOH can be detrimental. And it is in my case.

You claim to be an experienced tech and are flummoxed by the single most common bass amp in professional use ever. Seriously man, it's an SVT. Solve the problem. That's your job.

Here's a tip: I get those things like every third band, I find if you stick an RE20 in front of it and push up the fader you can usually move on to worrying about something else.

Never claimed that... I am a volunteer that helps out with the gear the band has. If I were paid for this and had my own system I was running that would be the thing to do.

However, sticking a mic in front of the cab isn't really relevant to the OP is it? I guess maybe I said that I have a problem with that particular head as a reason to consider a DI before the head? Or were you too busy formulating your helpful rebuttle to remember what the OP was about.

I do get a little defensive when people who have never run sound start talking about how "we'll have words" if the sound guy asks them to hook up in a way that they don't want to. I know that these people have never run sound because if the had they wouldn't be so inflexible! Chances are the guy who is at the venue to do the sound probably has done it there before and may have some insight on what works.

I really think a person should run sound before he starts dictating how the sound guy should do his job. Just like I think someone should have to wait tables before they go out to eat, because you have no idea what you are putting those people through until you have done it.

Obviously you are a greater man than I am, projectMalamute, so I stand corrected... Maybe.

Sorry for the long post. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, Over and Out.

 

[fokof]

You claim to be an experienced tech and are flummoxed by the single most common bass amp in professional use ever. Seriously man, it's an SVT. Solve the problem. That's your job.

Hummm......
So it's a soundman's job to open a faulty amp and do some repair or modify a crapy engineering job ?

(I'm not talking about an SVT , I'm talking about ANY faulty amp)

 

[Juan Count]

They usually hate it (and yes, I know why)... but I always insist... "... MIC ME UP PLEASE..."

I have to admit... DI is a good back up and probably easier to deal with....

 

[JimmyM]

svt substandard??? HOW DARE YOU!!! I don't play on substandard gear. unless of course they don't bring me my svt that's on my rider, in which case i cartainly will play on substandard gear as long as there's a paycheck. your pal's svt may need work, but that's his fault that he doesn't get it fixed.

juan, i've come to find it's a di world, and if you like a mic'ed amp sound, i think it's a good idea to find a way to simulate it in situations where you're forced to use a di. but i don't like it and i insist on a mic when i use my own rig. i don't know why some soundmen are so scared of it. a bass cab mic is probably the most trouble free mic on a stage. all you have to do is use a decent mic, place it in the middle of a cone, and turn up a fader. takes a few extra seconds, but it's hardly a big deal.

 

[slaerts]

Guys too many variables for a definitive answer...

I have found playing in clubs/pubs etc a few years ago and playing in church now that I'd much prefer using the di out from one of my amps. I currently play a SWR Baby Blue, but have used a shuttle 6.0 and a GK 700RBII all were good but not all sound guys trusted the di out on them.

For those of us who use effects it adds another level of difficulty as your effected sound through your amp is what you want. Good luck guys.

Another variable is the soundman, is he any good? Is he good but unconcerned about bass? What are his preferences and what will he negotiate? Will he run a mic and a di but only to placate you and just use the di signal? Some will only use their crappy cheap 20 year old dis no matter what you are asking. The more sound guys I work with the less trust I initially have for them, but it is a trust relationship you just have to hope he cares about his job. One thing I know is not all soundmen are equal but all present themselves as if they know what they are doing.

Playing in a church at the moment, it is mostly just me and an acoustic guitarist and a singer. Rather than carry the amp in I just DI. I have used most of the pre-di's out there (radial jdi, tonebone, ebs microbass, sadowsky, all the sansamps, markbass super booster, aphex + 2 or 3 othrs I can't remember atm), the clearest easiest adjustable one I've found is the one I bought for my acoustic guitar, a LR Baggs paracoustic di. It sounds fantastic if I don't use my amp through the few different pa's I've been through. Although cave is suppose to be bringing out a passive di similar to a sansamp bass driver delux which I'm interested in playing.

For those of us playing live who regularly encounter new soundmen all we can do is smile and take a deep breath as we go once more into the breach...

 

[jimfist]

New guy here...saw this thread and thought I'd chime in. About me: yet another bassist sound mixer, many years experience. Happy/proud SVT Classic w/8x10 cabinet owner, no more need be said. I love my hard rock and metal, and I like it LOUD....SVT = heaven.

My 2 cents:

I've recently purchased what could only be thought of as one of the most expensive "direct" solutions to this problem imaginable: the Fractal Audio Axe-Fx Ultra (Fractal Audio and Atomic Amps - Axe-Fx Ultra and Standard - The Atomic Reactor Series - Axe-Edit Editor), known by many to be very popular among 6 string guitarists, but less so for bassists. This amazing (and pricey) box excels at realistic amp/cabinet simulation. Though most of these amp/cab combinations are suited for 6 string electric, they do supply the Ampeg SVT amp/8x10 cabinet combination. As well, there are "user slots" for third party Impulse Responses (IRs) for those who are so inclined to use cabinet emulations for cabinets other than the stock provided. The factory provided IRs also include a choice of microphones for any of the speaker cabinet simulations chosen, or you can choose no mic.

Although a bit of tweaking and experimenting is necessary in using this product, it is an excellent tool and problem solver, but perhaps not for everybody at this point in time - especially bassists.

It works like this:

I've created my presets with SVT amp/8x10 cabinet simulations in place, along with any other processors I'd like to have in the virtual FX chain, and this signal is sent out to a FULL RANGE speaker system (acting as your bass speaker system), and monitored at a typical healthy stage level - ideally in a room that has been acoustically treated/EQ flattened. This is quite a departure for the way most bassists would go about getting their "sound" (bass --> cable ---> bass amp/speaker), but with the proper FRFR speaker system, some knowledge and persistence, it works really well.

The long and short IMO is that best results in a typical nightclub situation for a bass sound is one where the stage volume is under control, but not at the expense of happiness with your volume OR sound, and the FOH mixer/monitor system gets a single QUALITY feed from the bass rig with which to work. The Fractal Audio Axe-Fx does this brilliantly. Obviously, this piece is not for everyone, and does require a commitment on many levels. But I for one would never have thought I'd be able to achieve anything CLOSE to the sound of my fully cranked up SVT rig in a processor box, but the Axe-Fx does a remarkably good job at this.

The Axe-Fx covers all of the bases, providing the sound of the (virtual) amp, cabinet, and microphone, all of which are sent to FOH via XLR output or 1/4" output via DI. IMO, the way of the future - but it's here right now. I'm able to travel with a much lighter pair of speaker cabinets (thus more versatile, less sweating) - or NO speaker cabinets - without sacrificing my sound. In reality, any venue where I might need to use my full SVT rig should be equipped with a pretty arse-kicking monitor system to boot. So, if I find I need "more me" on stage, I attain it via the house monitors rather than providing the extra "over the top" power myself.

 

[godofthunder59]

Mic nothing else works for me I hate DIs. I bring my own mic and stand and set it up. YouTube - Dudevision 2011: Summertime Blues - Johnny Smoke