Bass Frequency Myth!

[ehque]

Sorry, but you are wrong. In fact, if you get further away, say go into the restroom in a club, you will generally hear the bass louder than anything else.

Go back to that club (or ask your speaker manufacturers to do so). The bass will be louder in the club (averaged over various locations) than outside of it. The only reason you think the bass is louder outside is because of the drastically reduced treble.

Everything I posted came directly from the websites of speaker manufacturers. Maybe you should visit their websites. I never said I agreed with their theory. I simply posted what they are claiming.

If you don't believe in it, agree with it, or understand it, perhaps you shouldn't present it.

 

[Rob22315]

So much of what you've said is every bit as unsubstantiated, filled with buzzwords but showing little cognizance of the actual thread's premise. And this ain't long-range submarine detection, and not even high-end touring where the toys are better. I pulled up a bunch of links you can read if you want to understand what's in practical use at the higher end of SR however. But I'm certainly not going to waste tons of time arguing point by point since you don't seem to actually understand how to actually address what was posed at the start of the thread.

Check that link at the Seattle zoo in the google to see how poorly some of the suppositions not yet practically advanced end up playing out.

Again, you seem to be like the guys who talk about skin effect and a lot of other nonsense that isn't especialy pertinent at audio frequencies when discussing cables and wiring, not even coming from the audio sector.

More FUD, no content but maybe that's poor forum technique on your part rather than lack of knowledge. Others say your a cab designer although I haven't see it come across in your posts in this thread. I'm willing to get better educated so post a couple of links you think apply, I'm happy to read them and be proven wrong, but not bullied wrong.

Note, I'm a generalist but I deal specialists all the time - lawyers, engineers etc. Usually the specialists are right so I don't argue too much but sometimes the specialists are wrong or have limited scope of knowledge because they are, by definition, specialists.

FWIW, I don't buy into the 'expensive cables are better' BS either even though I know what the skin effect is.

 

[greenboy]

I just don't have a lot of patience for the myth alluded to in the first post, which could be distilled down to what you find in post #10: "It is all about the bass freq waves taking longer to form. Does that me the bass freq wave doesn't exist? No, just means that it may take longer to form."

Something like that gets said about every 5 days in the amp forum and usually ascribes to what is in fact poor listener/source positioning practices like using old horn-loaded cabs with no midrange source pointed anywhere near their ears, a lack of understanding about boundary effects, destructive interference and buildups from reflective secondary sources, phase, and most of all, a lack of logical problem solving and poor powers of observation.

I sometimes am shocked people have played bass for a bunch of years sometimes many decades, and never experienced a sonic sweet zone somewhere right by their rig where the bass frequencies are incredibly massive for nearly every note, and moving further ways it isn't nearly as enveloping. I can't believe no-one has ever put their ear near an actively crossed subwoofer or a bass cab and found out that it's a hella bit louder right there next to the cone than somewhere else.

Do people once they think they have experienced something fixate on some flat earth idea to the end of their days in spite of a preponderance of evidence that it ain't always so?

Generally the situations are pretty simple and the science doesn't need to be overly complex to explain what is happening. Destructive cancellations and constructive coupling and summing of low frequencies is pretty well understood without much knowledge of advanced science.

Oddly I find that those who've done live sound a lot have less of the luddite perceptions still intact, but still, there are a lot of bad soundmen who don't have a clue and don't care to.

 

[greenboy]

I guess, Rob, that you've unleashed the rant floodgate. I'm the guy who used to ask people why their headphones weren't 56 feet wide so they could properly hear low E, and if the bass had a B string they'd better get some even wider headphones.

It bugs me how the simplest basics of science can get mangled in supposed music forums and how basic common sense gets trampled by voodoo. I hear nonsense about some frequencies traveling faster than others (then why does the bass part not keep playing after all the higher pitched instruments have hit the last chord, nimwit, and how does everything manage to be synchronized though it is spread across maybe 10 octaves?) Whatever happened to the speed of SOUND?

I hear duncy statements about drivers reacting to make this happen. Somehow the drivers are doing some weird thing through a time-space wormhole or something I guess.

And then there's the slow driver thing. Like the 18 is so slow that it's still playing music when the band goes on break, you'd better get a 410 instead.

I wish people would use their imaginations this well when designing their music! We'd have a lot more cool stuff to listen to then ; }

 

[greenboy]

More FUD, no content but maybe that's poor forum technique on your part rather than lack of knowledge.

So I only get a 3.6 from this judge? I'll just have to console myself.

 

[dave_bass5]

when i walk away from my rig, say, 20ft i can hear that the low freqs are more prominent than they are standing up close to my rig.
Cloud be that im actually hearing less mid but either way, i get more low end of in the room than i do in the playing area.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

when i walk away from my rig, say, 20ft i can hear that the low freqs are more prominent than they are standing up close to my rig.
Cloud be that im actually hearing less mid but either way, i get more low end of in the room than i do in the playing area.

This is boundary cancellation in action. Take a look at the placement of your cab. If there is a wall nearby, low frequency waves are reflecting off that wall, and are then mixing in out of phase with waves coming directly out of the front of the cab, thereby canceling them out. Generally speaking, any walls within 2' ~ 8' from your cab are going to be problematic for low frequencies. Once you are far away, the reflections are no longer nearby.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Ric5]

Do people once they think they have experienced something fixate on some flat earth idea to the end of their days in spite of a preponderance of evidence that it ain't always so?

Generally the situations are pretty simple and the science doesn't need to be overly complex to explain what is happening. Destructive cancellations and constructive coupling and summing of low frequencies is pretty well understood without much knowledge of advanced science.

AHA! That is it! we can't hear the bass inside of a 28' radius is because the earth is flat. The flatness of the earth is effecting the bass frequencies and how they form!

 

[dave_bass5]

AHA! That is it! we can't hear the bass inside of a 28' radius is because the earth is flat. The flatness of the earth is effecting the bass frequencies and how they form!

Bass was never meant to be heard in the first place.

 

[JimmyM]

elmer fudd or not, click on some of the links in greenboy's sig. he not only is a speaker designer but he's designed a pretty high end bass cab that's pretty darn popular. he'd probably be making some good money with it if he didn't hate building cabs

 

[greenboy]

Here's another great variation for plonkers everywhere:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9999148&postcount=90

 

[ehque]

Here's another great variation for plonkers everywhere:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9999148&postcount=90

That's frigging epic.

I can't believe people think that. Room boundary cancellations and all, the bass STILL has to be louder on average near the amp / in the club that further away. In fact, for every point where reflections cancel, there have to be other points where reflections reinforce each other, don't they?

At least, that's my understanding. I'm sure it's far more complicated than that, and I've done 3D simulations of sound wave propagation.

 

[staindbass]

Hello TB-

I was in a class recently and the teacher said something: Bass frequencies are hard to hear unless you're far away because the wavelength is so long.

I'm paraphrasing, but that was the idea. I've heard that before, and I believe it has been thoroughly debunked (on this very forum, many times). But I had a hard time explaining to him what exactly I was talking about... so to the point. Does anyone know of any good articles on the interwebs that I could show him to explain why this isn't true? If you know, please post a link. Thanks

explain to him that you do not need to be at the end of a wavelength to hear it. you cab be in the middle, or beginning of it. ever hear a concert from far away? do you hear treble or bass? if anything the treble is absorbed and reflected by objects, whereas the bass curves around them. johnny a. staind.

 

[greenboy]

That's frigging epic.

I can't believe people think that. Room boundary cancellations and all, the bass STILL has to be louder on average near the amp / in the club that further away. In fact, for every point where reflections cancel, there have to be other points where reflections reinforce each other, don't they?

At least, that's my understanding. I'm sure it's far more complicated than that, and I've done 3D simulations of sound wave propagation.

Hey ehque,

I've seen applets on the net that do a good job of illustrating principles, and of course companies like Meyer have often had a lot of detailed graphing in their white papers and articles. But it would be interesting to see some of the sims you've worked out.

 

[warnergt]

Here's another great variation for plonkers everywhere:

This thread had degenerated into a disrespectful exchange - a violation
of TB Rule #1. You guys need to keep this civil.

 

[GoesThump]

where getting right up on a dynamic mic increases its low end output?

Sorry, not to derail the thread, but this isn't quite correct. Proximity effect is a function of polar pattern, not of the transducer type. (i.e. doesn't matter if it is dynamic or condenser)

GT

 

[greenboy]

This thread had degenerated into a disrespectful exchange - a violation
of TB Rule #1. You guys need to keep this civil.

Ah, my old nemesis, CYBERCOP:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9890566&postcount=95

 

[greenboy]

Sorry, not to derail the thread, but this isn't quite correct. Proximity effect is a function of polar pattern, not of the transducer type. (i.e. doesn't matter if it is dynamic or condenser)

Yep. From Post 73:

Nothing to do with powered mics. It has to do with microphone patterns themselves, and really isn't much different than the principles of boundary loading for speakers. Proximity effect as experienced with non-omnidirectional pattens such as cardioid is not any way to prove anything substantial about bass response versus distance.

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[GoesThump]

Yep. From Post 73:

Nothing to do with powered mics. It has to do with microphone patterns themselves, and really isn't much different than the principles of boundary loading for speakers. Proximity effect as experienced with non-omnidirectional pattens such as cardioid is not any way to prove anything substantial about bass response versus distance.

Whoops. You beat me to it. My bad for answering before reading the whole thread.

I'm curious about the origin of the misconceptions about low frequencies & hearing. Perhaps the OP's teacher confused "harder to localize LF" with "harder to hear LF." I've seen students confuse those more than once.

Anyway, as you observed a few posts ago, once something is ingrained in someone it is hard to dislodge, regardless of evidence.

Wait - you said the earth ISN'T FLAT??!? You heretic!!

GT

 

[greenboy]

Whoops. You beat me to it.

Hey - it's good to have some independent confirmation ; } ... Anyway, the real pioneers of all this stuff beat us both to it by many many decades. That's why it's so maddeningly hilarious, to see all these vestigal ludditeisms about sound persisting in forums. I mean, real data has been around for ages, and the internet has a lot of good resources from respected researchers.