Bass lessons for beginners - by a beginner.

[wade_b]

But no matter. I have no fears that the discriminating and selective readers might fail to identify those narrow minded diehards and what they represent – as I have done.

Is this topic to be a rant against methodology and attitude?

That seems a bit disingenuous given your original post and where you posted it.

Look man, I'm nobody special on bass.

I love music, and I do have the desire to get better at it; I don't have "cred", big gigs or record sales to wave around to get your attention.

But at the same time, I respect those that hold to "narrow minded" views of music and how it should be taught.

I'm just wondering why you feel the need to rail against the narrow-mindedness of someone (such as Jeff Berlin) who CLEARLY demonstrates mastery of musical concepts?

Why is it so hard to see that this very thing you rail against is the method that they used to become great in the first place?

To me - that's just disrespectul and ignorant; ignorant in the since that you are ignoring the accomplishments in favor of focusing on railing against a method that you don't agree with.

 

[Zegie]

it's not bad advice in your op,it's the potential for learning things wrong built into the premise of it.....

I think I sort of understand about your argument re “potential for learning things wrong built into the premise of it”.

I suppose it’s a bit like gunpowder, alcohol, growing pretty poppies, splitting the atom, or sitting down on the toilet and finding the seat is warm, carbonated soft drinks, credit cards, cars, aeroplanes, lawyers, thalidomide.....

The premise of these were good but somehow as you put it “the potential for learning things wrong was built into them”.

...actually I'm not so sure I do understand.....

He who learns, teaches.
Ethiopian Proverb

Z.

 

[Jim Campbell]

I think I sort of understand about your argument re “potential for learning things wrong built into the premise of it”.

I suppose it’s a bit like gunpowder, alcohol, growing pretty poppies, splitting the atom, or sitting down on the toilet and finding the seat is warm, carbonated soft drinks, credit cards, cars, aeroplanes, lawyers, thalidomide.....

The premise of these were good but somehow as you put it “the potential for learning things wrong was built into them”.

...actually I'm not so sure I do understand.....

He who learns, teaches.
Ethiopian Proverb

Z.

your premise assumes that because you are marginally better than the next guy that you are qualified to teach him.....in a master class context,maybe.....i can see a guy like victor trading licks with one of his peers.....but at a beginner level the potential to do more harm than good is to great to ignore........

 

[JimmyM]

your premise assumes that because you are marginally better than the next guy that you are qualified to teach him.....in a master class context,maybe.....i can see a guy like victor trading licks with one of his peers.....but at a beginner level the potential to do more harm than good is to great to ignore........

exactly right. that ethiopian proverb is a good one. unfortunately you haven't learned yet, zegie. that's the point everyone is trying to make. you have learned that you have a knack for playing bass, and you've learned a few random things. which is good, but not good enough to be a teacher. if you force yourself to go take a single lesson from a good teacher who is well-versed in theory and jazz concepts, you will understand completely what we're talking about. till then, you won't. jim's 3rd grade/4th grade analogy is an accurate one.

 

[Steady Eddie]

I know I've banged on about this in previous posts but I think it's relevant here because some people seem to be missing the point.

Just because you have a deal of knowledge and ability doesn't mean that you can teach it. Teaching is a separate skill from playing.

I had classical guitar lessons from a master of the instrument and actually learned very little. I've also had lessons from a folk guitarist who had been playing for only six months and he taught me a lot.

So it all depends really.

 

[JimmyM]

I know I've banged on about this in previous posts but I think it's relevant here because some people seem to be missing the point.

Just because you have a deal of knowledge and ability doesn't mean that you can teach it. Teaching is a separate skill from playing.

I had classical guitar lessons from a master of the instrument and actually learned very little. I've also had lessons from a folk guitarist who had been playing for only six months and he taught me a lot.

So it all depends really.

that's what's known as "correlation without causation." meaning that just because the one guy with knowledge wasn't a very good teacher doesn't mean they all will be bad teachers, nor does it mean that everyone who's only been playing for 6 months will be a good teacher. the odds are way better that the experienced musician will be a better teacher than the one with 6 months under his belt.

 

[BassyBill]

Competence is necessary but not sufficient for teaching well.

In other words, being a smoking player won't automatically make you a great teacher. On the other hand, nobody's going to be able to teach a whole lot if their own playing sucks.

It's also a fallacy to think that any advanced player will be unable to empathise with a beginner. While that may be the case for some, there's no good reason at all for assuming it to be universally true.

 

[algernon]

Competence is necessary but not sufficient for teaching well.

In other words, being a smoking player won't automatically make you a great teacher. On the other hand, nobody's going to be able to teach a whole lot if their own playing sucks.

It's also a fallacy to think that any advanced player will be unable to empathise with a beginner. While that may be the case for some, there's no good reason at all for assuming it to be universally true.

Yes, I believe you're right. While I cannot comment on bass teaching, being a beginner myself, I distinctively remember the bitterness of some of the so-called "technical" lectures from the polytechnic school "best" teachers...

They would fill 4 boards with math describing a low-pass filter, but most of them failed to explain why and where one would actually *need* a low-pass filter in real life... Only a few, while too knowing their maths, also took the time to actually apply the theory.

So yes, it is both knowledge AND method (and a bit of talent, I would say) that makes a good teacher. I have nothing but the deepest respect for teachers that spend a great deal of time polishing their method along with knowledge.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

It's also a fallacy to think that any advanced player will be unable to empathise with a beginner. While that may be the case for some, there's no good reason at all for assuming it to be universally true.

Yup - we don't say that adults shouldn't teach 4 - 5 year olds at school, because : "they can't remember what it's like to be that young"...

In fact - people often say that more experienced teachers are the best and that's what they want for their children.

I remember talking to one of the best Jazz pianists in Britain, who was an incredibly skilled player and extremely knowledgeable - but he made a living out of teaching autistic children. He loved teaching complete beginners and there is an argument that the harder the teaching job - the more experience you need..?

Certainly I don't hear anybody demanding that teachers should have less...

 

[Zegie]

Update:

I thought it might be useful to other students starting out on the bass journey if I were to share my experiences with online bass tutoring sites.

Obviously, I have not seen them all but these are the ones I have used and returned to time and time again.

For a real good kick to get going:

http://www.studybass.com/

This is set out in a progressive, structured and organised way and has the beginner bassist firmly in its sights. Provides an excellent foundation for the aspiring bassist. Does a good job of teaching theory with playing. A fine place to start.

http://playbassnow.com/

Great site by an inspirational player. A little disorganised meaning you have to hunt around for content. Great video back up helping with technique. The presenters natural cool and friendly approach makes it a pleasure to use. Many other bass tutors post lessons on this site so this is an excellent one stop shop if you don’t mind wading through it all.

http://www.how-to-play-bass.com/

A different approach to learning bass by concentrating on learning songs rather than theory. Patient and thorough presentation by video but sometimes a little dreary . Great if you want to learn bass lines to songs real quick and where to put your fingers without bothering with the whys and wherefores.

This is just an account of the ones I found - and found useful.

I am sure there are many many other sites and I hope members will contribute and add their experiences of online bassing.

Z.

 

[Jake D]

I don't think the OP's response was "over the top" to JimmyM's post. Jimmy, you suggested he "resents being taught", which seemed to come totally out of left field. OP's observation that some teachers find it difficult to relate to a novice seems totally valid. I deal with that in my industry. My industry has a language all it's own. I have learned to use that language and I find it very difficult to communicate with lay people.
If someone pointed that out to me (which happens all the time), I wouldn't assume they resent being taught. I would just try to remember my audience. I think OP had a right to take offense at that.

I spend a lot of time sifting through the posts in the General Instruction forum. Half the time, the experienced guys on here use jargon to amazing and astound beginners and intermediate players. It is frustrating and sometimes turns into a pissing contest. So much so that when somebody does try to communicate with a beginner, using language a beginner can understand, they are flamed for it.

Note: I appreciate this forum and refer to it daily. I generally don't view any section but the GI forum. I value all the experienced teachers that take their time to post here. This isn't a matter of natural security however. Sometimes it would be wise for us all to lighten up. The only bass player that ever saved the world was James Jamerson, and he doesn't give a crap about bass talk forums.

 

[eSmith]

I can relate to this thread, I'm a beginner. I am teaching two others (no I don't get paid, it's family). I know I am not qualified. I do know more than they do though.

So, this is how I deal with it. First, I take lessons from a qualified instructor. He's got a degree in music and he dictates the topics we cover. I listen and try to keep up. If I can't. I speak up about it. I tell him all the time if he is getting ahead of me and I really think thats the key here.

I think people learn different things in different ways. What is killing me to learn might be a breeze for others and vice versa. we do not all learn at the same rate or have the same obsticles. How is an instructor to pick up on this if I don't come out and tell him? We do a lot of theory and there is no way to "see" if I understand it, it is far easier to play a major scale pattern than it is to describe it.

That said, when I am showing others, I NEVER vary from what I know 100% and understand. (That means I tell them a lot that I simply don't know and we can go look it up together. I NEVER make it up as I go along) I get some pretty good questions and I take those to my instructor, get the right answer and THEN pass it along.

I can see the points being made here and have to fall on the side that beginners, myself included, shouldn't be teaching. On the other hand, there is no issue with practicing together with someone and trading tips, so long as your both honest about the level of your knowledge.

As for the whole rudness thing, it's the internet, lets try to remember that. JimmyM's posts were no more aggressive than many of his other posts in other threads, don't take it personal, it's just him. I highly doubt he meant it in a personal way. I suppose I could take offense at the comment above that "Myself Included, should not be teaching" But I know myself well enough to know I didn't mean to insult myself, I'm just being honest. If you knew Jimmy the same way I know myself, you might not be offended either. (managed to refer to myself in the first AND third person in one sentence, I'm rather impressed with myself)

Anyway, the more I read this thread the more I like my teacher. I feel the answer to bridge the teacher student divide is for the student to be brutally honest and speak up rather than nod when something is even a little questionable to you. The teacher needs to know your questions in order to provide answers you will grasp. If your not interactive with your instructor, quit lessons and buy a book instead, you'll get the same out of it.

-eSmith.

 

[bassinplace]

I know I wouldn't want a person who just got their license last week teaching me how to drive. Although playing bass isn't as dangerous of a proposition, the harm it could do to your musicianship could have the potential to be relatively similar. I say stick with the experts.

 

[SBassman]

Uber. Way to go.

My vote for:

- Worst thread in a long time
- Biggest concentration of obnoxious behavior in a small space.

Congrats.

 

[Jake D]

Yep.

 

[eSmith]

No, you guys don't pay attention. There is a Chicks at gigs thread with one or two pictures and 1000 users who feel the need to repost the same two or three pictures 1000 times in a row. They've done this 7 or 8 times. Massive fail.

This thread doesn't even come close. This is actually an informative discussion and rather than add usless posts, why not discuss WHY it is beginners shouldn't teach. Why not discuss the bad habits that are likely to develop and why a good teacher will make sure you avoid them.

Sure beats hi-jacking a thread you don't intend to add any real content to.

Just Sayin'


-eSmith.

 

[Jake D]

Great! How about discuss why it is okay for a beginner to share his experiences with other beginners?
Do you think that some beginners may want to know what another beginner is working on? I do!
The thread jack occurred when somebody tried to make this about why beginners shouldn't teach. That's my $.02.

 

[Setebos]

Of course is great to share experiences at any level.
The problem here I think is the tittle of the thread. It would have been different if it read something like: "As a beginner this is what I'm working on" or "Lets share what we beginners are working on" or something of that sort. The whole issue would have been different.

But pretending to teach when you havent yet really learned what you are supposed to teach is not a very good idea. In my opinion. Teaching is not only showing or repeating what you know. There is a lot more involved that comes also with experience (years of playing), genetics (some people teach better than other because is in them). You need not only need to know what to talk about but also how to convey the idea to different people. Not all musicians or genius players can do that. Teaching in a huge part is a gift, same as it is to excel with an instrument. And it needs to be backed up with experience and knowledge.

I've been playing for 4 years. On and off the first 2, full on the other 2 and with a teacher for the last year.

My progress this last year has been huge compared to what I achieved in the previous 3 years. Not only as a bass player but as a musician. And that could not have been achieved if I worked by myself.

I definitely recommend to everyone to find a good teacher and work hard with him. It will be like driving on a smooth road against trying to reach the same destination driving Off Road if you do it by yourself.

 

[Art Araya]

i'm always leery of beginners giving lessons to others. it's like the blind leading the blind.

i think you need a certain baseline of knowledge and experience before you teach otherwise you could be accidentally guiding someone down a wrong path.

this isn't a hard and fast "rule" as i know that there's always something we can share with people that are newer than us. just make sure that you stick to things you truly KNOW to be facts and good habits and stay away from the other areas that you yourself are learning about.

 

[Zegie]

Great! How about discuss why it is okay for a beginner to share his experiences with other beginners?
Do you think that some beginners may want to know what another beginner is working on? I do!
The thread jack occurred when somebody tried to make this about why beginners shouldn't teach. That's my $.02.

Right on!!

I never have and never will, claim to be a bass teacher - If only!!!

However I do like to think I can provide lessons - in whatever sphere of life. Whether anybody listens is their concern. (I've had kids, I know).

The thread title is "Bass lessons for beginners - by a beginner".

Don't know about the 'angry and the (unnecesarily) upset' but I learn lessons everyday in all aspects of life - and I'm glad I do otherwise I'd still be crawling around the floor in nappies (diapers).

Remember, there are no mistakes, only lessons. Love yourself, trust your choices, and everything is possible.

Peace.

Z.