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Bass manufacturer ethics?
- Thread starter JoshuaTSP
- Start date
Okay maybe I can paraphrase what I think the OP was after:
Which companies have you "heard of" or seen evidence of having poor ethics in terms of employee treatment, environmental sustainability, production "corner cutting" and etc? Who is first and foremost out for the almighty dollar/Euro/Franc/DM or whatever...
Likewise, which companies have your heard of or seen evidence of having spotless or near spotless records in terms or quality control, employee relations, and environmental stewardship? Who puts quality first?
Am I close???
By the way.....
I think this is a perfectly legitimate question. There are very few things we can do to "make a difference" these days. Voting obviously doesn't work.....:scowl:
The way the world runs today, it's all about bottom line. If someone cares to, he can help the bottom line of a manufacturer who embraces the same things that are important to them. Likewise, in some VERY small way, he is keeping the money out of the hands of companies who don't.
If you have a hard on for one particular tone that only basses made by 12 year old Chinese orphans from 10,000 year old fresh cut old growth wood wrapped in baby seal fur will produce, well, then I guess that's your bass. In that case, I guess it's "all about the tone".
But if you can get by with (AND AFFORD) a bass that is made in the US or England, or Germany, by small companies or even individual craftsmen then you can, in a very small way, support that code of business while keeping support away from the other style of business.
All this being said, if you can't afford a small-shop instrument, then get whatever you can afford. It's about choice, and choosing to put your money where your mouth is can be nearly as rewarding as playing itself...
No one is going to put someone down because they can only afford a Chinese made instrument. But no one should put anyone else down because they chose to put there money into US/UK/Canadian/Deutch/etc. manufactured instruments.
Rant (and sarcasm) off....
I think this is a perfectly legitimate question. There are very few things we can do to "make a difference" these days. Voting obviously doesn't work.....:scowl:
The way the world runs today, it's all about bottom line. If someone cares to, he can help the bottom line of a manufacturer who embraces the same things that are important to them. Likewise, in some VERY small way, he is keeping the money out of the hands of companies who don't.
If you have a hard on for one particular tone that only basses made by 12 year old Chinese orphans from 10,000 year old fresh cut old growth wood wrapped in baby seal fur will produce, well, then I guess that's your bass. In that case, I guess it's "all about the tone".
But if you can get by with (AND AFFORD) a bass that is made in the US or England, or Germany, by small companies or even individual craftsmen then you can, in a very small way, support that code of business while keeping support away from the other style of business.
All this being said, if you can't afford a small-shop instrument, then get whatever you can afford. It's about choice, and choosing to put your money where your mouth is can be nearly as rewarding as playing itself...
No one is going to put someone down because they can only afford a Chinese made instrument. But no one should put anyone else down because they chose to put there money into US/UK/Canadian/Deutch/etc. manufactured instruments.
Rant (and sarcasm) off....
I'm curious to hear what people know on this subject. I'm always in the mood for a new bass (it seems) but never in a hurry. I like to research things to death. Along side electronics and build and obviously tone and whatever else, I may as well prioritize what sort company/builder I want to give my money to.
Surely people out there have opinions based on fact and research...
Anyone?????
Surely people out there have opinions based on fact and research...
Anyone?????
You mean France would say "We are very, very angry with you - if you do that again we will deprive you of the Airbus and croissants.:scowl:
Eh, probably true to a point. But I'm sure the bigger companies are just raising prices because people will pay it.
And "buy USA" isn't a good way to get around environmental problems.
Is there really a union that represents music company employees??? Headcount is a huge expense for sure. Especially when you have to pay a living wage and SS and medicare, and workman's comp and etc...
No such worries in China...
Think of how cheap SX's are after there allready sold to a middle man and then you , think how cheap the factory sales it fro what 20-30$? what is the worker getting paid? I bet the people who make SX's are in very horrible conditions
The problem is not individual companies like Fender or SX. The problem is a world economic system that judges the behavior of such companies acceptable. It is all too easy for the US to maintain its ethical business practices at home when US companies can so freely exploit millions elsewhere.
That's exactly the kind of thing we're talking about. If people can afford to deal with companies that don't exploit, then we can "vote with our wallet".
Now we just need to know who the "good guys" are and who the "bad guys" are. I know that there is a spectrum, and no one can be completely lily white. Or can they???????
I am most concerned with business ethics.
Some companies will bend over backwards to make their customers happy, others will not. Some will do custom work, others will not.
There is an important perspective though, that has to do with the recognition that a bass is not merely a pretty slab of wood with some electronics. The bass is meant to be played, and as such it becomes part of a performer.
Therefore when someone manufactures "a bass", especially a custom bass (made to order), the expectation is that it will satisfy the needs of the performer.
I've had some very interesting experiences with high end custom basses. Once I paid many grand for a custom hippie sandwich and then proceeded to watch as they "precision adjusted" my bridge with a rat tail file. And when the bass became unusable as a result, they tried to tell me it was my fault for having unusual needs in relation to the action. Needless to say, I will never do business with that company again. (Besides, their basses are so darn heavy you end up stoop shouldered after an hour on stage).
On the other hand, I have nothing but praise for people like Keith Roscoe, who went way above and beyond the call of duty to make me a custom fretless, we had to go get Jason at Hipshot to mill a custom bridge for me, with custom string spacing, and he let me pay only the tooling cost for the CNC programming (a mere couple hundred bucks), and didn't even make any profit on the deal. All together, that was one of the best experiences I've ever had with a bass manufacturer. They were very concerned about getting me an instrument I coud actually use. That is a very high standard of business ethics that is difficult to find in the production world.
I have a bass on order right now from a little known luthier in Northern California, it's been five years in the making but it's finished and ready, it's a gorgeous six string fretless with a cherrywood body and a redwood top, in fact maybe I'll link you guys to a picture of it so you can drool for a while. Bart soapbars with RMC's in the bridge, custom electronics, the whole 9 yards. I have yet to play it, so can't tell you whether it'll actually be usable, but the luthier made it from drawings and specs that I sent him, the whole thing is precision made from the ground up for my exact playing style. Five years is a long time to wait, but this particular luthier has been patient with me too, through endless conversations about details and so on, and I appreciate that very much. That is "service", and it has a lot to do with business ethics as well.
And of course, you can bypass this whole issue by simply going to the store and finding "just the right one", that takes a long time though, and a lot of patience. There hasn't been a bass in at least 20 years that I've wanted to play "as is", there have always been some tweaks and adjustments needed. Some manufacturers just want to sell you what they have, take it or leave it. Others will go out of their way to adjust the bass any way you want. I like craftsmanship, and I like service. I'm willing to pay for it, and I expect my money's worth.
Exactly!!
BTW what are the materials for SX basses?
It just doesn't make any sense, materials + labor < $50?
What is the secret here?
The material cost for most bass, much like the material cost for a fast-food meal, is a small %.
As far as labor, it's the exchange rate. $150/mth is average wage, includes health care, etc. The question as to whether that currency exchange rate is unethically held artificially low...
Reading the thread here, I don't think there's any consistency to what ethics is. To me, good customer service is not ethics, it's just good business. It only gets into ethics when basic principles are ignored (e.g. DR Bass).
Using noncompetitive tactics to gain market share = ethics. Treating employees according to EEOC or other guidelines = ethics. Damaging environment or health = ethics.
That might be a conceptional problem though.
Sure - the front office with hot-n-cold running secretaries and big glass doors is all very nice and 'corporate' looking and appears to show a great concern for ethics (free organic coffee in the waiting room and fresh magazines printed on recycled paper) but mostly it's a facade of lies covering up the whole Hinterland of cubical dwellers, employees and worker bees.
You cannot factor in the high-ended instrument shops either, since they are so minute in the consumption of resources when they make maybe one or two or a dozen instruments a year.
No - let's take the "Uncle Harry's Guitar and Bass Company", represented by a sleek headquarters office in Duluth. And let's just go for the 'human impact' side of the equation for now.
With NAFTA, the overhead of the actual plant has not gone down - in fact they've gone UP as new taxes and regulations designed to federally enforce and environmentally/financially destrooy Uncle Harry are levied in the form of fees, fines and forced capitulation to the E/Green Tidal wave of well-placed but misconceived do-gooders and tree huggers.
But the competition from offshore manufacturers who don't have such rules and busybody interference has now put Uncle Harry in a bind to keep his doors open.
There's a bigger carrot in other lands. (I bet you wondered how I was gonna get the carrot in there - huh?)
Since all Uncle Harry's highly paid, fine luthiers and old world artisans have now been relegated (made equal) to a mud-hut native in Botswana with a 20-Watt lightbulb hanging from the cord in his hooch and no running water, Uncle Harry has to come to the realization that he has no place to go but to Botswana and hire grossly incompetent (but trainable) natives to build his guitars and be competitive.
The native's learning curve is nearly vertical, but after he teaches them some rudimentary English, they get along fine and the natives are cranking out guitars at 600-a day after the brief training period - and all this with no union dues, Social Security or Federal Witholding.
Quality may be a little suck-ier, but hey - Uncle Harry is banking on his long established customer base and (so far) untarnished old world reputation to carry him through these next few formative years.
Not all is well back at the home front though. Uncle Harry's luthiers and artisans are being told to move to Botswana or quit.
Some of the old timers in the Uncle Harry factory are not gonna be able to move for various and sundry reasons, but suffice it to say that they mostly wind up on the unemployed roster at their local unemployed hang out - donut shoppes and bars, moaning over the loss of what they just KNEW was going to be the place they died with a carving tool in their hands, building their last guitar with their last (devoted-to-Uncle Harry) breath.
They have been robbed of their retirement dream and perhaps they would have build a little shop at home to create some one-off guitars for their Silver Years.
Nope! Now they drink their grief away or eat donuts until they are 350 lb rolling fatballs with a coronary occlusion and degenerative liver conditions that will soon take them off the medical-retirement bill at Uncle Harry's insurance carriers. More of Uncle Harry's money saved!
They've been mostly unceremoniously dumped by Uncle Harry and they are angry, bitter and unemployed, but the native is experiencing a new wealth. He now has a 100 Watt lightbulb in a recessed fixture and a color TV and a CD/DVD player and a bicycle to get to-from work now.
Heck! Now he even has a job where there was none before!
Of course, the TV, CD/DVD player and the 100 Watt light fixture are all made in Korea, but Hey! That's cool since the native knows that Korea's time in the barrel is coming too when all THEIR trained artisans are jobbed out to people they find living underground on Mars, in the next generation.
It's a vicious cycle and although not the friendliest, it has been that way since the days of Guilds, serfs and child labor work-houses in Merri Olde England.
I have heard a lot of bad about Gibson, and a lot of good about Music Man.
Other than that, no other companies stand out one way or the other in my estimation.
Other than that, no other companies stand out one way or the other in my estimation.
I'll call BS on this one and leave it at that. If we'd gone on a "rampage" then Iraq wouldn't be much more than radioactive glass these days... You haven't seen an American rampage since WWII and THAT one was well-deserved.
Now, back on topic: EBMM established a living wage for all its workers several years ago. I'd include them amongst the "good guys".
