Bass missing

[Oddly]

It seems to me that these days, a lot of sound engineers are not musicians and haven't played out in bands themselves...
There's an awful lot of sound production courses available these days and I get the impression they're mainly done by people fresh out of school - in itself of course it's wonderful that there's that opportunity available but I have to wonder how much better that is than having guys who came up the old-school way, playing gigs/doing their own sound/sticking with a band from early pub dates through to stadium tours...

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Are you guys playing P-basses? Mic drop....

 

[rtslinger]

I read it wrong at first I thought the bass player didn't show up just his amps?
no other comment

 

[Janforth]

saw dave mason's 'Traffic Jam' last fall. no bass player. left hand of keys and a punched up kick. after 2 songs I forgot about it and just enjoyed the show...

On the Audience channel I saw a Steve Winwood concert and there was no bass player . How sad, I changed the channel.

No bassist, who are they gonna blame for bass being too loud?

Shoosh...

 

[howlin]

I just played a club where I mixed the sound for 5 years. Everything from your typical (and I mean typical) singer/songwriter to jazz to rock and pretty much everything in between. The guy they have running the sound now had been on the road with some band so I guess that made him a "professional" but the impression he left me with was that his approach was pretty much paint by numbers. In other words: it was more by the book than by using he ears. I'm pretty sure the bass was lost in the mix considering that everything was going thru the PA but the bass and, since I consider my amp more of a stage monitor, I knew that I wasn't that loud.

The best way I've heard of dealing with this is Bobby Vega's approach. He invites the FOH guy on stage and asks him to listen to how the bass sounds and then asks him to make his sound out front like it sounds on stage. He says that and a $20 bill pretty much guaranties a decent sound out front.

 

[Atshen]

Arena acoustics don't help, as I've heard awful bass mixes for bands that should have it front and centre (Iron Maiden!) and where it's maybe more of a foundation (U2). Who knows how much is the mix and how much is just luck of the draw in a big space with lots of dead spots? It can be done, though. Geezer's mix for the most recent Black Sabbath tour was perfect and clear as a bell.

It's less forgivable in smaller venues known for good sound. I'm seeing lots more bands where the bass is almost subsonic, and as mentioned, the kick is so loud, it swallows any note definition.

This. Some places, especially big arenas but also some smaller rooms, just have really bad acoustics which result most of the time in a bass-sucking trap.

Acoustics are too often overlooked. EQ's can't solve a badly designed room.

 

[jmlee]

I saw Steely Dan a few years ago & the mix was totally lame - was hard to hear Freddy Washington!

Now *that's* a shame!

 

[JRA]

i recently played a gig with a FOH man (very young) who didn't know how to recognize that the amp powering the high end drivers was not turned on! he kept complaining that the the PA (it was provided, not his) didn't have enough low end. he had a reputation for "really knowing his stuff."

so: that experience speaks to several issues raised by previous posters.

 

[Hounddog409]

If you wear earplugs you'll hear a much different mix. More like what the sound engineer hears.

Well, unless everyone in the audience is wearing earplugs, the sound guy is doing it wrong.

You need to hear what the paying people are hearing.

 

[FrenchBassQC]

Once upon a time, the bass was ruling the upon the live sound spectrum, like the dinosaurs, it has now disappeared... What a shame...

 

[scowboy]

I'm not a 100% sure but I think the proliferation of the kick drum as a lead instrument in concert mix correlates to the advent of line array loudspeakers. Back in the late 80's and early 90's (I used to be so great, haha) I mixed on lots of trapezoidal and front loaded 4-way Clair S4 style boxes which I always thought were incredibly musical.

My good friend who owns the company I used to work for has now become a formidable regional production company and has gone to just about 100% line array boxes. His speakers are world class hi-end British speakers but when he did this I thought his rigs went from musical to just getting it loud with the kick drum way forward in the mix and the hi-mid frequencies being piercingly unpleasant. I've heard his modern rigs with a variety of acts and engineers and 9 out of 10 times it sounds the same regardless of who is mixing.

The guy out front has a lot to do with it but my point is I think that modern line array PA's are tuned for sub bass and crap hi-mid freqs and the bass guitar always gets lost. I saw Rush last summer and while you could hear Geddy it certainly was not a great bass guitar mix or drum mix for that matter. It's sad state of affairs and while I understand the business side of line array speakers and digital mixers, the fairy dust definitely got lost in the transition. The last magical stadium tour I remember was the Who in 1989. Not the best tour by the Who but for sure the best stadium audio I have ever heard. I'm sure there were others since but that one stands out in my mind. I also saw the Who twice on the tour right after John Entwistle died, you could not hear Pino Palladino at all.

I'm really lucky to live near Yoshi's in Oakland, CA. It's a small room that gets world class acts and players like Anthony Jackson. The rig is wonderful and it's almost impossible to exceed that experience. If any of you who do not dwell in nor-cal get a chance to go there... go. It's amazing and you won't feel short changed at the end of the night.

 

[PluckyThump]

This has been going on for 20 years. Live shows are mixed to sound like a car stereo competition. The loudest kick drum wins. I've seen Iron Maiden three times and not once could I hear Steve Harris clearly, not even when I had a seat on his side of the stage. Same with Rush, Geddy's bass is always barely discernable. I almost never go to large-venue concerts anymore because I got tired of paying good money for bad sound.

 

[the yeti]

An honest discussion would require violating said rule .

In any case, yes the trend is to lose the bass and go with just "lead kick". So we should all burn our gear and just stay home LOL.

and yet somehow you managed to make your point w/o bashing anyone. weird.

 

[shaft311]

We are not allowed to speak of such things here - repost in misc.
Bashing Sound Engineers...no longer allowed.

 

[bassbully]

I have no interest to ever see any band without a bass player.

 

[Biggbass]

for the bass, muddy rumble is all I hear at concerts now. It's been very noticeable for the past decade or more. I've often wondered why they mix it like that.

 

[seamonkey]

Well, unless everyone in the audience is wearing earplugs, the sound guy is doing it wrong.

You need to hear what the paying people are hearing.

It's not everyone. There's bell curve of human hearing and the sound engineer has to hit it on the spot for "most". There's a lot of $$$ at stake. Some people don't hear as well as others. And it can change from day to day with simple things like some congestion, to age related. For me, the mix is usually just too loud, usually to compensate for the crappy venue acoustics. The earplugs take it down to a level I hear better at. YMMV

It could be getting spoiled by IEM and the actual reduction of sound levels I'm exposed to.

 

[DWBass]

I think the bands that roll with their own soundpeople have a much better understanding as to how to mix the band and make them sound good. I went to a concert several years ago. There were 3 acts. First act was LOUD with no balance. Bass could be heard though. Second act was so LOUD it was just a wall of noise! Couldn't even distinguish the vocals. Last act......Kenny G! Must have had his own soundman. Sound was impeccable! CD quality. Perfect balance between instruments. During very quiet passages, you could hear a pin drop! I've yet to experience that since! Went to a Funkfest at this same venue and it was LOUD and all kick drum. No bass to be heard.

 

[Remyd]

Did a quickie 2 song opener with my acoustic trio at a local venue a month or two ago (no drums). My wife still complained about lack of bass in the mix. It's not just the kick, if it ever was.

 

[Hounddog409]

It's not everyone. There's bell curve of human hearing and the sound engineer has to hit it on the spot for "most". There's a lot of $$$ at stake. Some people don't hear as well as others. And it can change from day to day with simple things like some congestion, to age related. For me, the mix is usually just too loud, usually to compensate for the crappy venue acoustics. The earplugs take it down to a level I hear better at. YMMV

It could be getting spoiled by IEM and the actual reduction of sound levels I'm exposed to.

thats my point - if sound guy does not hear what the audience is hearing - how is he going to get the best sound for most?