Bass missing

[funkytoe]

I agree with Scowboy. I think "improvements" in modern P.A. systems have contributed to this problem. Tons of wattage, reproducing the lowest frequencies through line array speakers and subwoofers and all I can hear is the kick drum? Add in 7 string and de-tuned guitars and the sonic space for the bass guitar is even smaller. Just because modern speaker technology can reproduce the lowest frequencies does not mean we should. I feel like an old man saying this, but everyone needs to turn down and listen to the band. If the kick is too loud, scale it back - or WAY back. I know people love to speak with great nostalgia about the Who and Grand Funk and how loud they were. But, loud for louds sake is dumb in my opinion. Be musical first. Some of the best sounding bass amps for big concerts (SVT and 800rb) have really steep roll off below 80 Hz. Why do you think that is? Maybe because you need a ton of watts to reproduce frequencies below that threshold and it will inevitably sound like a--. I bet it would sound a lot better if we all just scaled back on the tens of thousands of watts pumping sub-bass through speakers with 7mm X-max and went back to playing bass.

 

[jimfist]

The best way I've heard of dealing with this is Bobby Vega's approach. He invites the FOH guy on stage and asks him to listen to how the bass sounds and then asks him to make his sound out front like it sounds on stage. He says that and a $20 bill pretty much guaranties a decent sound out front.

Boy, did some of us get an earful on another thread (see below) for suggesting that "greasing" the sound guy was just the most unacceptable, unethical thing known to live performance:

How to Convince A Soundman to Do A Proper Mix

 

[musicman7722]

When I saw Train in NYC a few years ago it was all kick which covered over the bass entirely and a lot of vocals and guitar.

 

[RoadRanger]

and yet somehow you managed to make your point w/o bashing anyone. weird.

It was implied

 

[jaywa]

Well, unless everyone in the audience is wearing earplugs, the sound guy is doing it wrong.

You need to hear what the paying people are hearing.

For the same reason, if I see a guy mixing FOH with headphones on for any longer than it would take to solo a channel or two, I know he's stealing money. I've seen sound guys mix entire shows with over the ear studio cans on their heads and the FOH mix is AWFUL. Wonder why that could be?

 

[JLee]

Worked a show @ the Maryland Fair Grounds honoring Vietnam Vets. The bands were Lovin Spoonful, The Association, Army Band and a couple others for that time period. All the bands sounded great mix wise. The front of house engineer is a bass player.

 

[Staccato]

Are you guys playing P-basses? Mic drop....

P basses are not always heard?

I just played a club where I mixed the sound for 5 years. Everything from your typical (and I mean typical) singer/songwriter to jazz to rock and pretty much everything in between. The guy they have running the sound now had been on the road with some band so I guess that made him a "professional" but the impression he left me with was that his approach was pretty much paint by numbers. In other words: it was more by the book than by using he ears. I'm pretty sure the bass was lost in the mix considering that everything was going thru the PA but the bass and, since I consider my amp more of a stage monitor, I knew that I wasn't that loud.

The best way I've heard of dealing with this is Bobby Vega's approach. He invites the FOH guy on stage and asks him to listen to how the bass sounds and then asks him to make his sound out front like it sounds on stage. He says that and a $20 bill pretty much guaranties a decent sound out front.

I just left a part-time sound gig after 5+ years (voluntarily), and had to paint by the numbers in many instances. When non-musicians are calling the shots it can make things ridiculous, and muddy.

@funkytoe, I've always enjoyed lowering the kick drum level(s) when running sound as needed. It takes over!

 

[Johnny Crab]

This is why I have a 118/410 biamp monolith.
That's the way you think you're going to roll me?
There is justice. You just have to help yourself to it.

EXACTLY, the rig of choice for such an event!
That's the way we roll sometimes.

 

[heynorm]

Like bars, too many concerts are mixed with heavy kick but you can hardly hear the bass guitar. However, the Clapton and Winwood show we attended in 2009 may have been the best mixed concert I've ever heard in person. Unfortunately, when exiting I couldn't get over to the sound guys to pay them a compliment, or at least "thumbs up" for their excellent performance, as well.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Interesting. Coincidently, I watched an Austin City Limits with The Steve Miller Band. Part of the time the keyboard was kicking bass with his left hand and part of the time, the second guitar player switched to bass. In both cases, I felt like the bass was so hidden I couldn't tell want was being played. I was thinking it was either the broadcast or the live mix.

That's a terrible shame, because one thing I always loved about SMB's records was the high quality bass mix on them, especially considering many of the recordings at the time weren't exactly great in the bass fidelity department. I remember hearing Swingtown when I first started playing bass, and even then, I said, "That's how bass should sound on an album."

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Totally agree. One of my bands does Jet Airliner and it is a really fun part to play. And yes, it was very disappointing.

 

[jaywa]

That's a terrible shame, because one thing I always loved about SMB's records was the high quality bass mix on them, especially considering many of the recordings at the time weren't exactly great in the bass fidelity department. I remember hearing Swingtown when I first started playing bass, and even then, I said, "That's how bass should sound on an album."

A former cover band of mine used to do Swingtown. IIRC it was our 3rd set opener. The drummer and I were locked in so tight on that tune that even though there's really not that much to it, it brought the dance floor to life every single time. It is really a fun song to play if you've got the right people on it.