Bass playing for guitarists - tips & pitfalls?

[Sixpack324]

As a guitarist turned bass player (25 years ago)....I tend to disagree with the "less is More" trend....

For a majority of the song less is definitely more....BUT

There's an art-form to knowing at what point in the song less is NOT more.

Almost every song has a part where an underlying bass 'run' or fill, tastefully implemented and still within the groove, is warranted.

The trick is to figure out where that is without overplaying. Maybe the last bar of the last verse of the song....Or the last bar of the last chorus....or the last bar leading to the guitar solo, etc.

My advice would be as follows:

1. The kick beat is your friend. Don't just hear the kick.....FEEL the kick and learn to accentuate it.

2. Find the box. Sometimes it's right there in your face and sometimes you need to look for it (read: Feel it).

3. Put #1 and #2 together and create a groove that you and the casual listener can FEEL.

4. Start off simple. Roots are just fine to start with. Play the roots to the kick beat until you FEEL some accentuations (3rd, 5th, fills etc.) The idea of adding notes to the roots should be about leading the groove to the next chord change, not about how many notes you can fit in.

5. After you think you've established the groove through steps 1-4, don't be afraid to experiment. There's a dark shadow hanging over the "Guitarist writing bass lines" situation, but you can't let that stop you from experimenting. After all, song writing is a creative process.

6. Lastly, NEVER ever forget that it is your #1 responsibility to establish and hold down the groove. The drummer plays a big role in this, but he's not going to get it done alone. Before anything else, you need to be aware of the groove. Guitar establishes emotion in a song. Bass makes it possible for that emotion to be transferred to the listener through the groove.

 

[tZer]

As a guitarist turned bass player (25 years ago)....I tend to disagree with the "less is More" trend....

For a majority of the song less is definitely more....BUT

There's an art-form to knowing at what point in the song less is NOT more.

Almost every song has a part where an underlying bass 'run' or fill, tastefully implemented and still within the groove, is warranted.

The trick is to figure out where that is without overplaying. Maybe the last bar of the last verse of the song....Or the last bar of the last chorus....or the last bar leading to the guitar solo, etc.

My advice would be as follows:

1. The kick beat is your friend. Don't just hear the kick.....FEEL the kick and learn to accentuate it.

2. Find the box. Sometimes it's right there in your face and sometimes you need to look for it (read: Feel it).

3. Put #1 and #2 together and create a groove that you and the casual listener can FEEL.

4. Start off simple. Roots are just fine to start with. Play the roots to the kick beat until you FEEL some accentuations (3rd, 5th, fills etc.) The idea of adding notes to the roots should be about leading the groove to the next chord change, not about how many notes you can fit in.

5. After you think you've established the groove through steps 1-4, don't be afraid to experiment. There's a dark shadow hanging over the "Guitarist writing bass lines" situation, but you can't let that stop you from experimenting. After all, song writing is a creative process.

6. Lastly, NEVER ever forget that it is your #1 responsibility to establish and hold down the groove. The drummer plays a big role in this, but he's not going to get it done alone. Before anything else, you need to be aware of the groove. Guitar establishes emotion in a song. Bass makes it possible for that emotion to be transferred to the listener through the groove.

Respectfully - you just defined 'less is more'.

No one advocating less is more is saying don't every play anything complicated - they are saying what you said - focus on the fundamental purpose of the role first and foremost while taking opportunities to step out and do more when they present.

Typically, unless you are in a 'sub-genre' or 'niche style' - the role of the bass is supportive and by definition, not meant to 'draw the ear'. That does not mean boring - it means appropriate - and more often than not, appropriate means going with the fundamentals - establishing the correct tonal value married with a solid interpretation of the overall style to create a consistent and sustainable groove.

On the whole, an evening as a bass player can be one of the most rewarding roles on stage. You just have to have your head screwed on straight and be thinking of the song first - not how to make your part 'cool'. Your part will be cool as a direct byproduct of how effectively you do your job.

 

[Sixpack324]

Respectfully - you just defined 'less is more'.

No one advocating less is more is saying don't every play anything complicated - they are saying what you said - focus on the fundamental purpose of the role first and foremost while taking opportunities to step out and do more when they present.

Typically, unless you are in a 'sub-genre' or 'niche style' - the role of the bass is supportive and by definition, not meant to 'draw the ear'. That does not mean boring - it means appropriate - and more often than not, appropriate means going with the fundamentals - establishing the correct tonal value married with a solid interpretation of the overall style to create a consistent and sustainable groove.

On the whole, an evening as a bass player can be one of the most rewarding roles on stage. You just have to have your head screwed on straight and be thinking of the song first - not how to make your part 'cool'. Your part will be cool as a direct byproduct of how effectively you do your job.

I see your point.

I've heard the 'Less is More' theory more times than I can count, but I've always had my confusion as to what everyone means by it. I tend to over-think things and over-explain them as well.

The point I was trying to make is that you should start with that theory, but don't be afraid to experiment. I hear of a lot of guitar-to-bass converts getting too caught up with keeping it simple because of the guitar-to-bass convert stigmata.

And who knows.......maybe the OP needed a definition of 'less is more'. I know I did when I first converted.

Just tryin' to help.

 

[fearceol]

.
Being fairly proficient at the guitar, I don't really have too much technical issues with the bass. But I've come to realise very quickly that, although the technique may be quite similar

I don't think this has been addressed so far, so I'll touch on it briefly.

From a technique aspect, the bass is a different animal altogether from the guitar, especially if you decide not to use a pick. Even using the pick, the technique is different.

IMO it would be prudent to spend a little time checking out bass technique. Your hands and wrists will thank you for it. Here are some clips to get you started.


Todd Johnson Bass Guitar : Floating thumb technique - YouTube


Developing Safe Left Hand Technique for Bass Guitar - YouTube

The Official Carol Kaye Web Site (See "Tip 103").

 

[Phalex]

Let me clarify: Less is more, but sometimes less is less.

 

[WokenDeer]

More or less..

 

[tZer]

Sometimes, but not others, mostly.

 

[Toastfuzz]

Guitar players create tension and release from the selection of notes they play. As a bass player, your very presence in the mix adds a certain kind of tension. It's a weight or gravity that is added or released when you stop playing.

+1 Thats a really good way to explain it

Whats funny to me is when a guitar player picks up my bass, plays a guitar solo on it, then hands it back and says "look I'm a better bass player than you and I don't even play bass!" Then they don't understand when you say "well, you're not really playing bass. You're playing guitar on a bass."

Of course theres times and places for that too, the TalkBass majority will tell you to sit down shut up and know your role as a bass player. Theres many many many of us here who love lining up a bunch of gain and fuzz boxes, turning out amps up to 11 and thrashing about. So don't let any dissuade you either, but don't be "that guy" guitarist I described above (I've seen that probably 4 or 5 times in my short life)

 

[tZer]

IME it's a matter of perspective, plain and simple. If you know how to look at the role of bass and what it means to serve that role, you see how even the 'simple stuff' is far more complicated that what most people see superficially. But you cannot expect everyone to understand the complexities of locking with the drummer in a meaningful way - picking really good notes and creating a groove. It's the art of being subtle, but effective.

My personal anecdote comes from a cover band I joined a bunch of years back. I have always embraced the role of 'supporting member' and 'rhythm section member' and never sought to be a flashy player - even though I can step up and flash if needed. After playing with these guys for a few gigs, I wasn't getting any feedback and I started thinking about why. Did they think I sucked? What do they think? Oh, me, oh, my... I feel so insecure now...

I finally asked the guitar player, "Man, I am busting my hump trying to do a good job for the band but no one has said anything to me. Am I doing OK?"

He said, "Do you know what you need to be doing and are you doing it? If so, you're doing fine. Why do you need someone else to verify that for you?"

He was dead right. I was just feeling insecure and wanted some validation. Sure, it's nice to get it - but the bottom line is if you are doing your job properly as a bass player, no one notices. It's when you don't that they do.

 

[mambo4]

Guitar (melody) lines generally float along on top of the rhythm section , filling up spaces.
Bass lines form a framework for that stuff, it it is paramount to leave spaces. '
That is why "less is more". Less bass = more spaces for others (including the drums, esp the snare!).

It is also why rhythm ,specifically where the note starts and how long it rings, is so much more important.
small changes in those two things can have a strong impact on the feel of a song.

 

[earlofmar11]

Thanks everyone for your reactions. There is some great food for thought in there, and a lot of it goes in the direction of what I suspected. Some key words I highlighted:

• groove
• supporting role
• consistency
• (don't know if I dare) less is more

From a technique aspect, the bass is a different animal altogether from the guitar, especially if you decide not to use a pick. Even using the pick, the technique is different.

IMO it would be prudent to spend a little time checking out bass technique. Your hands and wrists will thank you for it.

I was originally trained as a classical guitar player, so I tend to play mostly with the fingers (with the nails actually), even on electric guitar. I sometimes use a pick, but it still feels a bit foreign to me. So I quite naturally started playing the bass with my fingers (nails).

Anyway, I'm going to explore the clips you indicated, as my hands and wrists are dear to me

 

[kraigo]

Respect the root.

I think of it as a continuum of "strong" to "interesting". Most of the time you want the bass part to be strong. Too much spice can ruin things.

Root, fifth and dom 7th are the bedrock of many a great bass part. I think of them as "root tones".

Next most common, I call them the "chord tones", because they tip your hand as to whether you're in a major or minor tonality: The third and the sixth. Primarily in blues, though. I often only use them as passing tones.

After that the "scale tones", the fourth and second. You probably already know when to avoid these and which.

Then chromatic tones.

KO

Added: Sometimes you're the straight man in the comedy team, establishing the harmonic structure for the other parts to contrast.

"Be the bassist you want to be". Step away from the instrument. Imagine what a "cool bass player" would play. Find it on the instrument.

 

[NCD]

Everything below is my personal opinion, learned from personal experience. Your mileage may vary.

I've personally noticed two approaches to bass:

1) Commercial: Support the chords, provide a heartbeat, play very little.

2) Melodic: This is complicated, but well worth it. It involves playing more and then learning to "say" the same thing in fewer notes, so in the end you play less... but you are playing far more than a heartbeat.

You knowledge of guitar will server you very well because melodic bass is built on arpeggiated chords. You almost always have to hit the 1 of a chord on the 1 beat (almost) which is what I like to think of as "no matter what you do, don't be late for dinner". People are counting on you to be there, don't let them down.

That said, there are a few tips I've picked up here and there that have really helped:

1) Silence IS a note. Learn to place it and play it with patience, without rushing to the next note. (Victor Wooten)

2) Let you notes "breathe". Don't choke them off by pushing to the next note, let them be full and alive. (VW again)

3) The commercial heartbeat only approach sucks because there is nothing substantive to it. It has no spirit, it's not vibrant, has no emotion, no meaning and communicates nothing. The bass is not a percussion instrument that plays a beat that happens to be a note... nor should it be made into one. (Me)

4) Have something to say (VW again). This isn't a technique demonstration, it's music. Don't play to impress musicians with your skill, play to touch people's hearts and emotions with your eloquence or the way your music really comes alive. You know what phrases are in music... be sure to build sentences, paragraphs and tell a story with them. Nirvana's "Come as You Are" is a perfect example of one good sentence... but a repeating the same sentence a thousand times does not make a story. Does your bassline "say" something? See the example for "Darling Dear" below and see if you can hear the "story" being told in the bassline. Have a story of your own, and tell it through your bassline.

This is not limited to Motown or even to plucked basslines, as you will see in at least one example below.

5) Counter melody rules if you can get those who don't understand it to shut up and quit demanding that you play quarter notes all the time. Instead of thinking of the bass as a supportive instrument, think of it as a second melody that runs beneath the chords and compliments or plays off of the main melody running above the chords. The two can interact, even passing back and forth in a playful or cooperative manner.

6) Once you have a great counter melody, see how you can "say" the same phrases in fewer notes. This is where less becomes more and you really want to let your notes breathe as well as use silence to it's real potential. If you play all the notes of your counter melody once, you can use silence thereafter and the listener's imagination will fill in the blanks. If done well, and not over done, it can appear to be genius on your part. All you do is give them an example or two here and there with all the blanks filled in and then ease back, play the notes at the main points and let them imagine the notes in between... which they'll do because you set them up to do that when you played those in betweens before.

Have something to say... then say it briefly.

7) James Jamerson Jr. said the greatest tip his dad ever told him was: "If you don't feel it, don't play it." This meant that if the line had no feeling, no emotion and no vitality... then play one that does.

Lastly:
8) If your toes aren't tapping, shoulders aren't swaying as you dance in place with the groove... no one else is going to either because you have no groove. People dance to a groove, not to a heartbeat. If your song is slow, play with feeling that makes the ladies close their eyes and let the music wash over them. If it's fun and meant for dancing, play something vibrant and alive that has them "dancing" with their shoulders and hands if they're sitting in their seats.

Study these examples to understand what I mean:

Darling Dear:
Darling Dear Bass Line - YouTube

Aram Bedrosian: He may not be a household name but the man is about 3 rungs higher than God when it comes to playing a bass. Listen to what he has to "say" here:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

For Once in My Life.. another great "story":
For Once In My Life Bass Line - YouTube

Victor Wooten: "You Can't Hold No Groove"... a simple line that "says" something in a very casual, fun and playful way. This making for a vibrant, toe tapping song that people will get on their feet for.
Victor Wooten - You Can't Hold No Groove - YouTube

By now, I think you've got the point. But if you're backing other people focus more on the Motown material, especially how the line never steps on or steals attention from the main melody.

All of the above is IMO, your mileage may vary.

GL!

 

[thomashawk]

For me: Guitar is heard; bass is felt.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

5) Counter melody rules if you can get those who don't understand it to shut up and quit demanding that you play quarter notes all the time. Instead of thinking of the bass as a supportive instrument, think of it as a second melody that runs beneath the chords and compliments or plays off of the main melody running above the chords. The two can interact, even passing back and forth in a playful or cooperative manner.

Ah ! It please me to read that. I never bought the "you are in the rythm section" ... the guitar player, key player everyone is going to have something locking with a part of the drum it isn't something only for bass.

Of course be suportive is important but eveyrone has to be suportive too at one point or another.

Also, don't be affraid of experimenting, reproducing the mainstream approche to music isn't the only solution.

 

[fep]

I agree with a lot of what has been said in relation to playing the bass and serving the song.

But, I don't understand how it specifically applies to guitarists learning bass (full disclosure, I'm a jazz guitarist but also play piano, drums and bass).

Imo, playing guitar and then learning bass gives you an advantage beyond the obvious of already knowing the notes, scales and arpeggios over the entire fretboard.

I've found that knowing more than one rhythm section instrument gives you a better perspective of each instruments role. I realize that I mostly like 'non-flashy' bass playing, I like bass playing as you all described in this thread. I realized I liked that style of playing before I even considered learning bass.

Playing bass has also helped my guitar playing. It helped reinforce the idea of serving the song, it's not all about me, it's not about being flashy.

The point is, having already played guitar, one should have more musical experience and a better perspective than someone taking up the bass as their first instrument.

For some reason, I've seen a tendency on this forum (although not necessarily on this thread) to put down bass players that learned guitar first. I think the guitarist/bass player is often getting a bum rap.

 

[uethanian]

So my question, especially to the multi-instrumentalists among you: can you share hints & tips, recommendations, pitfalls to avoid or typical guitarist "errors" that can help me play the bass in an idiomatic way that doesn't scream "guitar player"?

know everybody's gear better than they do
strange hats (dreds optional)
head bob+bass face
chicken grease
practice saying things like "groovy, man" "hip" "jammin" etc.
buy a P, and then buy a J, and then buy a fodera, and then buy another P.
feel unappreciated

 

[mixamatchi]

Someone may have said this already, but it's worth repeating. Along with every other attribute that has been stated here, it's most important that you realize you are part of the rythm section. Your job is NOT to just follow the drummer. You must participate WITH the drummer. Without getting into where you play on the beat, the point is that everyone's tempo/groove/whathaveyou will move around a bit. Your job is to be there for the drummer when he steps out. Who is he supposed to follow when he loses the groove? Realize how the notes you play affect the rythm/goove of the song. It's really cool to play a complex riff on the bass, but when have you ever seen that riff make someone dance? That's the bassists job. As a bassist, your pick/plucking hand is really FAR more important than how cool your scales/runs/harmonies are. The groove in most popular music is defined by the RYTHM SECTION, and everyone else is along for the ride. The bass is the melodic link to the rythm, and vice versa. Like everything, there are always exceptions, but this approach will serve you well. The metronome is your friend. Listen to the way your drummer accents, swings, and fills, then make your bass complement that, and help him hold down that groove.

 

[mixamatchi]

One last thing: counter melody from the bass is rythmic, and can make a good groove great. Your parts can be as simple or complex as you like, but how they affect the groove is what's important. A guitarist can rarely, if ever, effect the groove the way we do. Take notice next time you see a band that plays the right notes, but it just doesn't feel good. That's a rythm section that isn't working. If the bassist is lousy, the whole band will stink.

 

[burritosdaily]

This has been a really interesting thread to read. Although I was a guitarist first... I now feel much more at home on the bass for all of the reasons mentioned in this thread.

I would like to think I am more of a natural bass player who was trying to exist as a guitar player for a season of my life... then I discovered bass.