alexclaber
Commercial User
The Whappo Grande is a marketeer's dream (bigger=better) and an engineer's nightmare (how the hell do you get a 21" speaker to work in a cab that tiny? answer, forget low extension).
Alex
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Bass rigs should be a category
- Thread starter spode master
- Start date
The Whappo Grande is a marketeer's dream (bigger=better) and an engineer's nightmare (how the hell do you get a 21" speaker to work in a cab that tiny? answer, forget low extension).
Alex
rockstarbassist
Inactive
I'd have to see it in person myself before throwing out any final conclusions, especially with lots of juice like any sub needs.
finally people discussing what it really takes for true low end extension, rationally. btw the bs-212's look great. personally i would rather have all that low end on tap for the pa, but i understand your situation. looks like you did your homework, and the fact that you don't make rediculous claims tends to add to your credibillity. i imagine your cabs do exactly what you claim.
i have not auditioned an accugroove, and it is my opinion that they are truly one of the highest quality commercial bass cabs available today, but if their specs are correct why do they offer a sub woofer? with that kind of low end on tap already why would one even bother with a sub?
i have not auditioned an accugroove, and it is my opinion that they are truly one of the highest quality commercial bass cabs available today, but if their specs are correct why do they offer a sub woofer? with that kind of low end on tap already why would one even bother with a sub?
Wise words. Our band has really worked on getting stage volume down and we play 1,000 times better because of it. We listen, react and adjust far more quickly and effectively than we used to and as a result pull of some really nice performances.
I was simply commenting on what was given, Whappo Grande vs. 2 B4s for low end extension. I'm not sure how that's not fair if that's what we're talking about. You can't get 2.65 Whappos, you can get 1, 2, or 3. I thought we were just looking at 1 Grande vs. the other suggestion of 2 B4s.
Cone area is a factor because Sd*Xmax=Vd (max linear displaced volume). The more air you can move, the higher the SPL you can generate.
I don't say yay or nay about Acme's just b/c I've never tried them, so, unless the Accu nay's have tried them in equal comparisons, I'd hold back the mockery just a tad, as you've never seen nor heard what a Whappo pushed with 3400W sounds like...
There's no mockery intended on my end. I was just giving some rough figures for comparison. I've never heard Acmes or Accus, I can only go on numbers right now. It just so happens that Acmes numbers look better to me.
P.
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
Essentially my point. Getting tons of sub frequencies on stage is actually a bigger problem causer than getting tons of guitard onstage unless there is essentially no subwoofer support in the PA. And if there isn't, there should be some investment in the PA subs (sometimes when going to a club with inadequate or no subs I bring subs and rack for that) - because that'll support the two essential low end makers, and not just one messing up the stage acoustics without any real idea what is going out into FOH anyway.
For the low end anyway...
A decent 21" subwoofer driver in a relatively small cab can make tons of prodigious mid and upper bass to richen up the first few lower overtones of most notes - though it will also fool some ears into thinking that it's actually fundamentals they are hearing more of ; } - actually its a way to add more SPL to an existing rig without more shrillness, and properly isn't a subwoofer at all.
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
Which is to say I don't think there is usally any crossover being used to limit its output to only the sub-bass band.
rockstarbassist
Inactive
And again, I just want to make sure I've properly said you guys are waaaay smarter than me so I might be in the wrong place even trying to discuss it here.
Also you are correct but there was I'm guessing confusion on my part at least that true you can't get a fraction of a cab, but I would never say (or anyone I'd hope!) that a Whappo could compete with an 8x10 stack. That's why I said if it were SPLs that we were focusing on, you'd need approx. 3 Whappos to match up, although you could probably do it with 2.
I'm just going to retreat to the sidelines and watch as I'm getting way over my head here.
Still, this is pretty interesting and is starting to make sense to me when we're discussing realistic output of low low bass and how it can be done. Well, and properly at that!
I had a rig like this about 3 years ago and suggest using Alpine 15" subs or Kenwoods or any other car audio subwoofer for the lows. Couple that with Eminence or Celestion 15" or 12" drivers to handle more of the mid-section and then 10"s and horns for the highs.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
- 76
- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
The sensitivity of autosound woofers, or hi-fi woofers for that matter, is some 10dB lower than required.
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
Ah, but the clubs there are so small that cabin gain makes up for that ; }
Wow I really started a hotbed of contraversy 
I don't think I'm going to be able to quote every body here so I'll try and respond to anything that may be dirrected to me.
The Bass fundamental EQ. Maybe a few people here understand some of the physics behind pick up placement and frequency response. I have a very rudimentary understanding of this I was really made aware of it from this web site.
http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html
Basically due to practicality of pickup placement at some point you will have a 6dB per octave roll off in the low end of the instrument starting at point X relative to pickup center from bridge, instrument scale, and tunning.
Therefor the Lowest fundamental tones of the bass are attenuated due to this relation ship. The way I've come up with to counteract this effect is to. Build a custum EQ circuit to flatten the LF response (this circuit will only work optimally on the Bass it was designed for of a specific tuning).
The Circuit Basically needs to be a Single Integrator which exhibits a 6dB per-octave slope increasing towards the bass end of the spectrum. Then sum it with a High pass filter. Its a good idea to have a basic highpass to prevent any DC issues. Similar to the Bagend ELF concept that uses "dual integrators" to give a 12dB per octave boost to a sealed subwoofer. Actually a very simple circuit that requires a few op amps.
The statement that the Wappo Grande makes is that you can finally hear the fundamental. I think more accurately they should say Finally you can hear the Second Harmonic, since many Bass cabs can barely reproduce that.
I don't know if Sub bass on stage is so much a problem as if it is undistorted it doesn't really seem to compete with the upper octaves inteligibility, it becomes more of a pressence in the room. But room modes can make funny things happen some are strictly location oriented. The most significant side effect of HIGH SPL 20Hz that I have experience is that it will modulate a voice (and make objects not fastend down rattle, which can sometimes be easier to hear than the 20Hz sine).
Unless your out doors 1/4 wave canelations are gonna happen from boundry reflections. I think the least desirable range would be the pucnch range.
I think I may make a Sealed sub version using the same drivers that is physically much smaller. Will have about 117dB @ 30Hz at 1600 Watts which would be great for 5 String. It would need to be roughly 28X28X14. Much more portable and quite potent. And you don't have to turn it up to 11 if you don't want too.
The driver I am using has bassically benefited from car subwoofer Technology. It is only about 87dB efficient. But it is a fantastic sub motor for the price. The reason why I don't go with most of the Car subwoofers is They normally have a much Higher Fs. which is fine for car sealed subs as Cab gain will help you yeild great LF response. But typically they are not great for open air sub bass cabs, or ELF or Linkwitz transform worthy for free air reproduction. As their box tunnings are typically higher. So 12dB per octave roll off starts too high in sealed cabs, and sometimes the optimal sealed cab is physically imposible to build because it becomes smaller than the driver can physically fit into.
They are normally way to expensive too. The car audio industry has helped push some subwoofer inovation but is quite an overpriced racket in my oppinion. The extra Xmax that many of the car audio drivers have ruduce sensitivity and often isn't usefull as power handling is often exceeded long before xmax. Not to say that this trade off doesn't have its merrits. Peak power handling is increased without much fear of damaging driver, at the expense of sensitivity.
In the end its all a comprimise.
I love keeping stage volumes down, I scald our guitarist every time he puts his single 12 cab on the floor and usese it for a bench, and often make him put in on top of my rig aiming at his head. The drummer is a little harder to keep in line. I may see if I can get him to at least practice with TALA wands. So I don't feel the need to wear earplugs every practice. Everything becomes too distant with plugs in but its much better than frying my ears.
S'master
I don't think I'm going to be able to quote every body here so I'll try and respond to anything that may be dirrected to me.
The Bass fundamental EQ. Maybe a few people here understand some of the physics behind pick up placement and frequency response. I have a very rudimentary understanding of this I was really made aware of it from this web site.
http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html
Basically due to practicality of pickup placement at some point you will have a 6dB per octave roll off in the low end of the instrument starting at point X relative to pickup center from bridge, instrument scale, and tunning.
Therefor the Lowest fundamental tones of the bass are attenuated due to this relation ship. The way I've come up with to counteract this effect is to. Build a custum EQ circuit to flatten the LF response (this circuit will only work optimally on the Bass it was designed for of a specific tuning).
The Circuit Basically needs to be a Single Integrator which exhibits a 6dB per-octave slope increasing towards the bass end of the spectrum. Then sum it with a High pass filter. Its a good idea to have a basic highpass to prevent any DC issues. Similar to the Bagend ELF concept that uses "dual integrators" to give a 12dB per octave boost to a sealed subwoofer. Actually a very simple circuit that requires a few op amps.
The statement that the Wappo Grande makes is that you can finally hear the fundamental. I think more accurately they should say Finally you can hear the Second Harmonic, since many Bass cabs can barely reproduce that.
I don't know if Sub bass on stage is so much a problem as if it is undistorted it doesn't really seem to compete with the upper octaves inteligibility, it becomes more of a pressence in the room. But room modes can make funny things happen some are strictly location oriented. The most significant side effect of HIGH SPL 20Hz that I have experience is that it will modulate a voice (and make objects not fastend down rattle, which can sometimes be easier to hear than the 20Hz sine).
Unless your out doors 1/4 wave canelations are gonna happen from boundry reflections. I think the least desirable range would be the pucnch range.
I think I may make a Sealed sub version using the same drivers that is physically much smaller. Will have about 117dB @ 30Hz at 1600 Watts which would be great for 5 String. It would need to be roughly 28X28X14. Much more portable and quite potent. And you don't have to turn it up to 11 if you don't want too.
The driver I am using has bassically benefited from car subwoofer Technology. It is only about 87dB efficient. But it is a fantastic sub motor for the price. The reason why I don't go with most of the Car subwoofers is They normally have a much Higher Fs. which is fine for car sealed subs as Cab gain will help you yeild great LF response. But typically they are not great for open air sub bass cabs, or ELF or Linkwitz transform worthy for free air reproduction. As their box tunnings are typically higher. So 12dB per octave roll off starts too high in sealed cabs, and sometimes the optimal sealed cab is physically imposible to build because it becomes smaller than the driver can physically fit into.
They are normally way to expensive too. The car audio industry has helped push some subwoofer inovation but is quite an overpriced racket in my oppinion. The extra Xmax that many of the car audio drivers have ruduce sensitivity and often isn't usefull as power handling is often exceeded long before xmax. Not to say that this trade off doesn't have its merrits. Peak power handling is increased without much fear of damaging driver, at the expense of sensitivity.
In the end its all a comprimise.
I love keeping stage volumes down, I scald our guitarist every time he puts his single 12 cab on the floor and usese it for a bench, and often make him put in on top of my rig aiming at his head. The drummer is a little harder to keep in line. I may see if I can get him to at least practice with TALA wands. So I don't feel the need to wear earplugs every practice. Everything becomes too distant with plugs in but its much better than frying my ears.
S'master
Another thing that may need a little clarifying.
Sd doesn't really determin how low a speaker is useful to.
The average 10 bass guitar driver is not really suitable for extended LF response because it is designed to reproduce a relatively wide range of frequencies. Which requires a lower mass lighter cone, and they usually have insuficient xmax, to have good ultra Low frequency power bandwidth.
A subwoofer driver by nature has to have a lot of Mass and a high excursion capability, high powerhandling and a beefy coil, as a result it causes the driver to have a very High Le (inductance), lower efficiency etc. This typically makes the driver I'll suited to reproduce higher frequencies.
So just because your 8X10 has a greater Sd doesn't make it a more suitable subwoofer.
Vas has a little more to do with it. So does Vd.
Some of the eminence Bass guitar 10's seem to model well down into the 60's though. I may go for something like that for my top box coupled with a crappy tweeter horn of some sort. The ones with the wizzer cones scare me.
Woah I didn't realize I was responding to BF himself earlyer. Crazy. I want to see some graphs of some of your basshorns in optimal sized clusters.
Ciao
S'master
Sd doesn't really determin how low a speaker is useful to.
The average 10 bass guitar driver is not really suitable for extended LF response because it is designed to reproduce a relatively wide range of frequencies. Which requires a lower mass lighter cone, and they usually have insuficient xmax, to have good ultra Low frequency power bandwidth.
A subwoofer driver by nature has to have a lot of Mass and a high excursion capability, high powerhandling and a beefy coil, as a result it causes the driver to have a very High Le (inductance), lower efficiency etc. This typically makes the driver I'll suited to reproduce higher frequencies.
So just because your 8X10 has a greater Sd doesn't make it a more suitable subwoofer.
Vas has a little more to do with it. So does Vd.
Some of the eminence Bass guitar 10's seem to model well down into the 60's though. I may go for something like that for my top box coupled with a crappy tweeter horn of some sort. The ones with the wizzer cones scare me.
Woah I didn't realize I was responding to BF himself earlyer. Crazy. I want to see some graphs of some of your basshorns in optimal sized clusters.
Ciao
S'master
I think if you'll look at our comments, they were all spoken with an assumption of similar Xmax, in which case Vd will be proportional to Sd. Also, the Acme 10" drivers are designed for LF response. They aren't your everyday Beta 10s (afaik). I wouldn't compare a normal 8x10 like a Ampeg fridge to a Whappo for low end, but the Acmes are a different animal. There is of course more to it, but as a generalization, you're going to get more SPL out of more air displacement.
P.
Wouldn't it be easier to simply find a guitar player who doesn't play cheesy metal through a Marshall amp on 11?
If I walked into a bar and saw that bass rig on stage, I'd turn around and leave. I really don't want 118db of 20hz. I like my fillings where they are--in my teeth.
If I walked into a bar and saw that bass rig on stage, I'd turn around and leave. I really don't want 118db of 20hz. I like my fillings where they are--in my teeth.
rockstarbassist
Inactive
No.
Not every market has more than enough talent, unfortunately. I've been looking for a band for the last 2 months and just now have gotten a few leads. Sucks.
great thread, excellent info.
and if i walked int a venue and saw that rig, i'd be very curious as to how it sounds and stick around to check it out.
i'm a total bass junkie myself, actually after a few years of frustrating mini rigs and lots of money wasted i switched back to some large
volume cabinets (inexpensive, too...thanks to the current trends)
and i couldn't be happier. i found casters on a larger cab much better on my back than carrying a pair of 1x12's, if stairs are in the equation i just have a band mate help....come to think of it, the weight distributed between 2 people is about the same as one of those 1x12's.
anyway, that's not really the point...
the point is the bigger cabs with the lower frequency capabilities sound much better to my ears also.
cheers
and if i walked int a venue and saw that rig, i'd be very curious as to how it sounds and stick around to check it out.
i'm a total bass junkie myself, actually after a few years of frustrating mini rigs and lots of money wasted i switched back to some large
volume cabinets (inexpensive, too...thanks to the current trends)
and i couldn't be happier. i found casters on a larger cab much better on my back than carrying a pair of 1x12's, if stairs are in the equation i just have a band mate help....come to think of it, the weight distributed between 2 people is about the same as one of those 1x12's.
anyway, that's not really the point...
the point is the bigger cabs with the lower frequency capabilities sound much better to my ears also.
cheers
Well Having that sort of head room available in the lower register doesn't mean that it's going to get used.
In my oppinion having extra headroom is always better than not having the headroom in those ranges at all.
If I saw a rig like that and someone was playing a 20Hz sinewave out of it all night I'd stay for a couple of minutes until my stomach started feeling funny then leave.
I'm starting to think that the sealed sub version of the rig is sounding like a great idea. 28 X 28 X 14 is reasonably manageable. Though I will need 1600 Watts to get 117dB @ 30Hz.
I don't think you can do much better than that in such a small rig. But its certainly much more portable.
I think I should call it the Mr. Beefy series bass rig.
Any thoughts on the Single integrator EQ?
S'master
