Bass rigs should be a category

[spode master]

Oh, I've heard plenty of music with bass that low. It's always been electronically produced, or sounded like junk (to me). I've not heard many bass guitar tones below a low B that I'd care to have on me. They just sound like mud. You're right, it's certainly your choice and perogative for this, and I think it's neat as an exercise. But it seems to me that you'd probably be able to cut your rig in half (weight and volume) without much letdown musically.

Just my opinion.

P.

I agree that mainly electronic music has info in those registers. That it sounded like crap I'm not sure if thats because you don't like "electronic music" or the speakers weren't really happy trying to reproduce that range hence the mudd.

Again obsession overides practicality

S'master

 

[giglawyer]

Again obsession overides practicality.

If it makes you happy, I say go for it. Where you are designing your cabs to find that perfect tone, others are just buying and selling commercially produced cabs looking for the "holy grail." It's all good.

 

[rockstarbassist]

If we didn't have obsessive-perfectionist types out there, we'd never of gotten AccuGroove, Berg, Skjold, Nordstrand, Fodera, etc!!

 

[joelb79]

no comercially available, reasonably portable bass cab or subwoofer on the market that is capable of HIGH SPL output bellow 40 or 50Hz (Well not Many). And there certainly are no "full range" bass cabs capable of any High SPL sub bass.

I disagree. There are plenty of hi-fi bass guitar equipment manufactures out there that have wonderful designs that are full range, some even WAY below 40hz to well over 20Khz.

Try Epifani, Accugroove, EA. If custom is your thing, LowDownSound could make any imaginable cabinet.

Im sure with trial and error you have into your current rig you could have easily gotten something similar, smaller, and as powerful.

For example, my Epifani is rated -3db from 42hz - 18Khz. I played sine waves into it, and it seems to be -10db at 35hz, which is great! Corner loaded, this cab will be flat to 35hz.

 

[joelb79]

To add to what i just posted however... (hope this makes sense)

at one point in my life i was HEAVY into loud bass in my car. In fact, i was a participating member of the DB Drag Racing organization.

My whole goal was to spend as little as possible, be very public about it and kill the clown with the $5000 amp and $10,000 speakers.

I went through the trouble of locating a velodyne (flat from 10hz to 100hz) sub in my car, and measured with an RTA the peak resonant frequency of the car, calculated the car's air volume in respect to the displacement of my NEW speaker box.

The goal was to mimic a pipe organ. My Frequency was 60hz. To make this work, i had to use a 3/4 wave behind, 1/4 in front design.

Basicaly, 60hz is 5280ft / 60 length. Take that measurement, and divide out the 1/4 and 3/4 wavelengths.

The 1/4 is the cone moving forward, the 3/4 is the length the pipe needed to be behind the cone to make the air behind the speaker move the same direction as the front of the speaker.

The resistance to cone movement was astounding. I'm sure that the impedance of the speaker was exponentially higher, but i was able to (in testing) get 115db from a 6 1/2" speaker at 60hz in my living room with 1 watt.

However money flow issues kept me from implementing my design into a Chevy Blazer (which i needed to buy) and obtaining the wood to make it work. Math wise, i was expecting to hit around 150db with a single long throw 12" woofer.

So, i am a little insane.


That being said, i'm older now and dragging 3 big cabs and a huge rack into a gig just doesn't gel well with me. I don't play metal, and I hate messing with EQ too much. Simple is better IMHO. But i am just as insane as the person im disagreeing with.

 

[Pneuma]

I agree that mainly electronic music has info in those registers. That it sounded like crap I'm not sure if thats because you don't like "electronic music" or the speakers weren't really happy trying to reproduce that range hence the mudd.

S'master

Actually, I like some electronic music. That's why I put in the "or." I haven't heard much bass guitar that sounds good at those frequencies. Mudd isn't strictly a by-product of poor speakers, it's about the mix.

Thanks,

P.

 

[spode master]

Actually, I like some electronic music. That's why I put in the "or." I haven't heard much bass guitar that sounds good at those frequencies. Mudd isn't strictly a by-product of poor speakers, it's about the mix.

Thanks,

P.

I definately agree there. Its surprising how little music has intentional content bellow 40Hz. Some unknowledgeable experimental music guys often layer al sorts of delays and effects and end up with chaotic high level LF energies that could tear most vented subwoofers to shreds.

But its truly experiemental right? They don't want to know what a high pass filter is for.

S'master

 

[spode master]

I disagree. There are plenty of hi-fi bass guitar equipment manufactures out there that have wonderful designs that are full range, some even WAY below 40hz to well over 20Khz.

Try Epifani, Accugroove, EA. If custom is your thing, LowDownSound could make any imaginable cabinet.

Im sure with trial and error you have into your current rig you could have easily gotten something similar, smaller, and as powerful.

"I can not change the laws of physics captain!"

There is no cab, smaller than what I have built with that sort of output from 20-30Hz. The Danley sound Labs DTS-20 is ~ the same volume and it is the only subwoofeer of its size with that level of output from 20~30HZ and it measures

88" X 20" X 20"

Trust me when I say the industry in general stretches the truth about their +/-3 and +/-10dB marks.

For example a speaker may be relatively linear from 50-100Hz but may be 10dB hotter from 300-3kHz They will take the sensitivity rating from the 300-3Khz rating, and derive the -3dB sensitivity from the 50-100Hz range.

This sadly is the norm!!

117dB @ 30HZ @ 1600Watts is probably about as loud as you can get out of a 4cu' sealed subwoofer in a half space environment period.

For example, my Epifani is rated -3db from 42hz - 18Khz. I played sine waves into it, and it seems to be -10db at 35hz, which is great! Corner loaded, this cab will be flat to 35hz.

Corner loading can give you 8th space gain but will not flatten response. Your out put will increase evenly across the spectrum until the wavelengths reach a critical relationship and no longer effectivel couple with the wall.

Room gain can; however, EQ bass response at ~12dB per octave. Once wave lengths start getting shorter than 1/2 wavelength of room dimensions. There are also limitations there.


I'm not saying these companies don't make fine products. but I would take the numbers with a grain of salt. Especially anything that claims it has good response to any extremes of the audio spectrum.

As far as my current design I measured twice and built once!!

Through a lot of reading, prodding, research, and modeling I got it right the first time (At least with my sub). I didn't build my EV top boxes its simply what I already had, and they are the weakest link at the moment.

S'master

 

[spode master]

You're right, it's certainly your choice and perogative for this, and I think it's neat as an exercise. But it seems to me that you'd probably be able to cut your rig in half (weight and volume) without much letdown musically.

Just my opinion.

P.

Its all an exercsise in seeing what is really possible. And sticking my middle finger out at the industry.

I agree that its a lot of extra effort or an extrodinary effort.

I would describe the subs I built sonicly as sounding smooth, and neutral.

Of course room modes often alter the sonority of the rig, but thats the reality of any bass rig in any room.

S'master

 

[spode master]

I still think it's better to get powerful lows OFF the stage and on the same plane as PA and not providing another source of mechanical stage coupling/boom that works its way into mics like the kick drum's, and not providing another source for cancellation anomalies should there be some PA subs.

I agree, but again Vocal only PA and bars with no stage are places I play often. So Thats my excuse And sometimes my subs are being used as part of the PA since they are quite PA worthy. I normally High pass all vocals bellow 80-100HZ unless they are Baritone Bass. So mud is not much of a problem.

S'master

 

[spode master]

I still think it's better to get powerful lows OFF the stage and on the same plane as PA and not providing another source of mechanical stage coupling/boom that works its way into mics like the kick drum's, and not providing another source for cancellation anomalies should there be some PA subs.

So, to repeat, my approach has been to bring a subwoofer rack and subs if a club has PA with inadequate low end support. I feel there is more benefit by far with that approach.

Well depending on the depth of the stage and the height of the stage and rig placement any lack of groundplane coupling will be frequency dependent.

Some Engineers try and Time align the PA to the Back Line. Of course even then having complimentary phase combination from the FOH subs to the Backline bass rig is problematic at best unless they have identical phase characteristics that are uneffected by the room.

I guess if you are more than 2M away from FOH that interaction won't be too bad If you keep Stage SPLS reasonable as you are 6dB or greater down from your 1M output.

Except for room mode problems.

Its all a compromise.

S'master-