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Bass rigs should be a category
- Thread starter spode master
- Start date
not sure it's going to be quite that easy. Maybe a variation lof the Linkwitz transform will work, but I need to think about that some more before I attempt soldering. The ideas been in my mind for a while.
BTW, I have some smaller boxes that I'm going to put a pair of my LAB drivers in and use 40-120hz or so, crossing to another driver above. Boxes will be compact, if heavy, about 80 litres net, sealed. Undecided on the top box yet, but probably my PAudio SN12C until I can get a BMS to replace it.
My LABs were originally the subs in my home front loaded horn system, but I moved and they don't fit here, so I sold the boxes but kept the drivers.
I've actually already designed and prototyped my eq circuit. I used Electronics workbench and its "bode plotter" feature to predict both amplitude and phase response.
Its basically a Single integrator summed into a highpass filter.
My Alembic has Stereo pickup switch so I actually have a circuit for Neck and Bridge pickup.
The only problem thus far is I Although My alembic is active. I have the aniversery electronics, and for some reason I'm getting some unwanted HF attenuation. All of the swept analysis with software like Specralab show that the EQ curve is almost spot on and the HF response is flat as a pancake.
My next step is to add a HighZ buffer to make sure I'm not loading down the Alembic Aniversery filters or something funny like that. Otherwise the low end is extra smooth sounding with the Eq circuit engaged.
For your dual lab 12 box I would recomend that you only use a box with a vb of 50.3 liters or a Vt of 58.52 L.
You won't gain much extension going to 80L and you will run into over excursion before you reach RMS power handling. And you will exceed Xmech if you choose to run 2X RMS
The smaller box will keep your drivers with in rated xmax at RMS rated power down to DC, and you wont exceed xmech if you run 2x RMS.
80L is almost enough volume for 4 lab12's in a sealed box. I just built a 4X lab 12 .707Q sealed box for a home cinema install I've been playing some bass guitar and also this track through them hyped by several dB(using parametric EQ to flatten them to 20Hz)
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It was actually sorta frightening. I got a couple of Wooooowwwww's. You could really feal the floor of the loft quake.
I'm thinking 4 Lab 12's in a sealed sub box is the way to go, just need to find some reasonable priced amps that can put out at least 1k watts into a pair. Nice little 2kW rig.
I am a firm beliver in the LAB 12 as a fantastic Sub driver for an almost unbeatable price vs. sub performance.
I would recomend going with 4 lab 12 drivers Vs 2 unless you play really chill coffee house gigs, or moderate studio levels.
Front loaded horn using lab 12!?!? a scoop??? is that what you mean?
Good luck!!!
S'master
Good to see he's going doing head to head comparisions with some of the Danley sound labs products.
I never did like that lul in the Lab horns response but it shure pokes its ugly head back up in the 30Hz range. But I got 8 BT7's so Its all good!
S'master
I have a Series 1 and a Clarke Deluxe. Got your PM, and it's replied to.
A 2x12 is much easier to get into my sedan. I have the 4 LABs, so if I find that one 2x12 isn't enough, I can easily build a duplicate and just take what I need. My LAB drivers are first generation.
My numbers whow that a well stuffed 82l net gives me a Qt in the .64 region, which with some coil heating puts me back near .707. My sims also show Xmax isn't exceeded at max power at any freq, and at 2x Xmech isn't exceeded. Used Unibox and WinISD.
I may also try some of the heatsinks for the drivers to be able to run them long term at very high power, if needed. I have plenty of power available. These have saved working pro LABs before.
No the LABhorns were corner loaded in my concrete bunker of a house. The rest of the system was also front loaded: an expo driven by a variety of 15" drivers, ~ 60-400Hz, and a 270Hz flare, either tractrix or LeCleach driven by BMS 4590's. All active, with discrete 24dB L/R filters.
There were also other versions with large conics and oblate spheroids with a modified 8" coax, and a set of Karlsons 60-150 below them. I've also had LaScala's (stock and djk ported) and still have my vintage Khorns, which were the rears in my domestic HT setup. Plus I've designed and built a number of other horns. Generally don't like scoops.
I love the dynamics and snap of horns (and lox IMD/FMD) domestically, but their time demain issues have begun to annoy me, so the next generation of my system will be open baffle (and huge) with 16 x 15" drivers in my loft in an infinite baffle setup. Proto's are already very good for the mains. Should eliminate most of the issues of the horns but keep the dynamics and low distortion.
What are you using for your modeling, I'm using Harris Tech Bass Box Pro. It doesn't have a mode for Thermal TS parameter shift, but It does show the Labs exceeding Xmax in that large of a sealed box (heavy stuffing). Think you will get best results running 2X RMS so you don't run into clipping as easily. Thats why I suggest the smaller Volume box. AT RMS in the large box you wont exceed Xmech but you will at 2X Rms. The smaller box wont.
Any how Let me know how it turns out.
Ciao.
S'master
I have an amp and a cabinet.
Best post of this thread.
My personal opinion? Put the books (internet?) down and pick up your bass...
Using WinISD and Unibox. Even at 40Hz and Xmax from two drivers, I just can't see me using those sort of SPLs often, if ever.
Perhaps....
What type of music do you play, what types of venues do you play.
What type of drummer do you play with.
I've played with bands where 116dB was the norm if not louder. I even tried to get everyone to quiet down and get the drummer to play with ligher sticks etc. Show them the SPL readings.
They all just sorta roll their eyes and so I had to just stick my earplugs in and deal with it (I was playing lead guitar for this band and would often get complaints at practice that I wasn't loud enough and I was the one with the freakin ear plugs in)
I am a sub bass freak so I'm prone to shoot for extremes. But I know that in a live situation even 124dB @ 30hz in a loud rock band is subtle especially since
1. The audiance can be up to 10 or more meters a away which tranlates into 104dB at listener position.
2. Fletcher muson curve dictates that more is necassary for it to be appreciable in the spectral balance of things.
I aggree that it may be impractical, and problematic at best. But unless you only play in rather subdued polite settings with musicians that know how to exhibit self control, I don't agree with the statement that you would never see your self using that sort of SPL in those ranges.
I do understand the difficulty of even achieving spectrally proportional output in those ranges both in loud speakers and, stringed insruments with electromagnect pickups. Let alone a curve that is intentionally weighted to the fletcher Munson curve.
Big fun anyhow I still agree with your use of Lab12 drivers. Great for clean smooth low bass!!!
S'master
FYI,
at the bass specialties shop, glenn has the entire accugroove line, as well as my old Acme B4. would be an interesting little shootout.
and IME, that B4 was crap kicking. feed it enough power and my MTD635, and that sucker could tear walls.
two things...
you just might have nudged me into buying that sadowsky sa410...
and heck yea! my epifani's are too good to me, but my acmes will always have a special place in me heart.
you just might have nudged me into buying that sadowsky sa410...
and heck yea! my epifani's are too good to me, but my acmes will always have a special place in me heart.
So, have I missed something, or are you trying to carry a fairly large venue without PA assistance? I mean, that would seem like the only reason you'd really need that heavy or large of a rig. That's the kind of situation a lot of these horns were designed for. Otherwise, I can't see any reason at all to have multiple 100lb+ cabinets.
All I have to say is, good luck with that. Hope you've got plenty of roadies or a nice spider/lift.
P.
I take it you haven't heard many bar metal and punk bands, or played in small venues.
Again fletcher muson curve. If I would like my Low B or A string fundamental even noticable, playing with a rock guitarest and rock drummer. I better be able to reproduce that tone at the same SPL minimum. If my fundamental tone is equal with the loudest instrument. Then it becomes a presence, that adds a certain fullness to the sound. For the tone to be of appreciable as seeming as loud as distored rock guitar and loud drums.
That fundamental tone needs to be an order of magnitude louder in relationship to the fletcher munson hearing curve.
This statement is actually even more true at lower SPL's as the fletcher munson curve becomes much steeper at the extremities of our hearing.
On the topic of Small Venues Vs. Large venues.
Small venues normaly have PA's that are really primarily Vocal only and certainly in appropriate for bass reinforcement. The only control you have on instrument SPL is the House soundman (if your lucky) or the audience, or club owner to tell you to turn things up or down. So typically at small venues Larger rigs are more appropriate.
On large stages and in large venues with mediocre to premium systems. It is better to bring smaller rigs to keep stage levels down and let the sound man controll the mix. Of course most small town bar bands don't get this but I do.
I don't have any rodies and I only play large venues every once and a while. But I do have quite a large Uhaul, with a Ramp and casters on my subs, so no sweat off my balls I'm willing to haul my rig arround.
I am however thinking about building my linwitz transform Lab12 sub. I don't see 28X28X14 as being to cumbersome. It will weigh over 100lbs but so what ADA handles and casters aren't that expensive. Not bad for something that will cleanly thump out 30Hz @ 117dB. Compared to a loud rock guitar/metal/punk guitar at those levels that is really fairly tame SPL for that range.
Personally I think most Naysayers are have never really experienced true sub bass. I had never experienced any real noticable output @ 20Hz until I built my bass rig a year ago. But since I have it has become quite an obsession.
Having to play without it is always quite depressing.
Anyhow Rant/Ramble
I really need to go find me a DTS-20 or 4 to demo!!!!
"Don't Stop Doin' it"
S'master
Speaking of how about a dose of fletcher munson + equal loudness curves and thats about all I need to say about that!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves
Oh, I've heard plenty of music with bass that low. It's always been electronically produced, or sounded like junk (to me). I've not heard many bass guitar tones below a low B that I'd care to have on me. They just sound like mud. You're right, it's certainly your choice and perogative for this, and I think it's neat as an exercise. But it seems to me that you'd probably be able to cut your rig in half (weight and volume) without much letdown musically.
Just my opinion.
P.
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
I still think it's better to get powerful lows OFF the stage and on the same plane as PA and not providing another source of mechanical stage coupling/boom that works its way into mics like the kick drum's, and not providing another source for cancellation anomalies should there be some PA subs.
So, to repeat, my approach has been to bring a subwoofer rack and subs if a club has PA with inadequate low end support. I feel there is more benefit by far with that approach.
So, to repeat, my approach has been to bring a subwoofer rack and subs if a club has PA with inadequate low end support. I feel there is more benefit by far with that approach.
