Thanks for clarifying that - I didn't see the forest for all the trees... too focused on that #11.
(Apologies to @Tom Kinter !)
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(Apologies to @Tom Kinter !)
In my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes musicians make is to study scales and especially modes always and only diatonically, and I was one of them when I first approached the harmony universe, back in the days.
This way it is really hard for a student to learn the difference in sound a scale or mode can produce on the same chord and the relationship between the degrees.
I always suggest practising all the major scale modes in the same key first, all of them, remembering the degrees is vital.
And of course the arpeggios.
One of the greatest aids to speeding up this process is to use geometry to combine harmony with technical skill, the bass is one of the instruments that helps a lot with this, and using opening fingerings instead of closed ones helps a lot to boost everything.
The first step is to work on the main shape of a scale or mode and then try to include extensions, highs and lows, this will help you get comfortable and use a scale not just from the root.
Here's an example of what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/isYiwbTkE_I
If you need any more help, let me know.
Ciao. Enrico
This way it is really hard for a student to learn the difference in sound a scale or mode can produce on the same chord and the relationship between the degrees.
I always suggest practising all the major scale modes in the same key first, all of them, remembering the degrees is vital.
And of course the arpeggios.
One of the greatest aids to speeding up this process is to use geometry to combine harmony with technical skill, the bass is one of the instruments that helps a lot with this, and using opening fingerings instead of closed ones helps a lot to boost everything.
The first step is to work on the main shape of a scale or mode and then try to include extensions, highs and lows, this will help you get comfortable and use a scale not just from the root.
Here's an example of what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/isYiwbTkE_I
If you need any more help, let me know.
Ciao. Enrico
Not at all! Your comment helpfully made me exercise my aging brain up the road to @MuseChaser 's point that the intervals are there in all the modes should one choose to use them!
Sometimes a Major scale (Ionian) has a #4 (Lydian) or a b7 (mixolydian).
Sometimes a Minor scale (Aeolian) has a natural 6 (Dorian) or a b2 (Phrygian).
Read that over and over until it’s really sunk in.
Sometimes a Minor scale (Aeolian) has a natural 6 (Dorian) or a b2 (Phrygian).
Read that over and over until it’s really sunk in.
No. Don't read that. It's wrong. An Ionian scale is an Ionian scale. Period. End of definition. It is not an "evolving document." Same with Aeolian.
One can think of a Lydian scale as an Ionian or major scale with a raised fourth, but it is then no longer an Ionian/major scale. Same comment on the two "variations" of the Aeolian scales; they are no longer Aeolian scales.
Also worth noting...while the Phrygian scale is often lumped in with Aeolian/minor sounding scales, it is most often used melodically over altered dominant chords rather than minor chords.
There are matters of opinion, and then there is correct and incorrect. This one is incorrect.
And that is just your opinion.
Move along brother, God wants His seat back.
EDIT; I see you’ve only been on TB for 1 month. Welcome to my Ignore list.
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Just a stupid question about these modes. I note that the various modes all follow the standard pattern, just beginning at a different point in that pattern. If, for example I am playing in C major, and I want to play in Dorian mode, is the C still Root, or does the D become root?
Dorian implies a scale built upon the second note of a major scale. In other words, D dorian would be played from D to D using the key signature (no sharps or flats) of C major. D would be the root of a D dorian scale.
C dorian would mean C to C with the key signature of whatever major scale has C as its second note, which would be Bb major (key sig Bb & Eb), and then in that case, C would be the root of C dorian.
To approach your question another way, since you asked "....If, for example I am playing in C major, and I want to play in Dorian mode," playing in C dorian over a C major chord wouldn't sound very good because the Eb and Bb in the C dorian scale (derived from the key of Bb major as explained in previous paragraph) would clash with the E and B in the key of C major, so C dorian and its overall minor sound wouldn't work over C major. D dorian would seem at first blush to be a better fit because it shares all of the same notes/key signature with C major, but because the third of D dorian is F, and a lot of melodies and improvisations tend to stress the third, landing on that F (which would be indicative of thinking/playing in D dorian) would clash badly with the third of a C major chord, E. Arguably the worst clash in music...the perfect fourth on a major chord.
If you'd like to use a mode over a major chord, I'd explore a lydian scale with the same root as the chord you're playing over. For C major, you could use C lydian. Lydian scales are built starting on the fourth note of a major scale, so to find the correct key signature you need to ask yourself, "What major scale has C as its fourth note?" The answer is G major, with one sharp, F#, as its key sig. So, C lydian is C to C using and F#. The I chord (the "one chord") in lydian is still a major 7 chord, so the root, third, fifth, and 7th in C lydian and C major are identical...no clashes. The perfect fourth of C major, F, is now an F#, so the aforementioned clash between F and E is gone, and you're good to go. Dependent upon voicing, every note of the C lydian scale can sound good over a C major chord....no more "wrong" notes.
Roots belong to Chords, not Scales. Scales have Tonics (common-or-garden major and minor scales that we all know and love) or 'Finals' (modes).
Why does it always have to come to this??
We all make mistakes, especially in topics that are quite complicated. We are all at risk to spread half-truths and stuff we thought we knew because someone told us so. Isn't it the job of this community to all weigh in to find out what is correct and what is not? I am happy to be corrected in a mistake or misconception - otherwise, I'll never learn.
This really has nothing to do with opinion. And even less with how long someone has been a member here. This last one really boggles my mind.
Can I be on your ignore list too? I'd consider it a badge of honor.
Not sure if you’re genuinely wanting to help, or just being passive aggressive. Maybe both.
The only thing I’m remotely interested in talking about is the OP’s question.
You're right... I have an unfortunate tendency to rely on passive-aggressiveness sometimes (that would have been my last sentence in the message above), but here, I really mainly wanted to help as I find it sad how fast we sometimes seem to get angry at each other and block/ignore each other over what, in essence, amounts to fairly trivial matters (in the larger picture).
that's a really good explanation... and that business about the worst clash in music is, I think, the reason George Russell thought it was better to treat the Lydian mode as the basic "main" mode from which to build: the raised 4th eliminates that problem (unlike Ionian or what we call the "major scale"). and as for the#4th now clashing with the 5th... I dunno, my attitude lately is who needs the 5th?
Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Wikipedia
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Thanks for explaining. You seemed like you had a good heart.
I’m ridiculously time poor. I come here to unwind and for stress relief…. not for more stress.
I’m not being rude/ignorant - I’m being efficient with my time.
If you feel that @MuseChaser is wrong then discuss/tease out the issue with him/her. This will benefit the OP far more than ignoring, or bringing bad feelings into the thread, over a trivial matter.
True. I could have been more precise. I was trying to answer the question re/ "the root of dorian if played over C major" so I stuck with that terminology trying to help out the questioner, but you are correct. Thanks!
It's kind of hard to understand or explain WHY the raised 4th doesn't clash near as badly with the 5th as the perfect fourth does with the third, especially without being able to play examples, but I'll give it a shot.
As has been said previously, chords are built by stacking thirds. If we build an extended chord based on the C lydian scale, we get...
C,E,G,B,D,F#
This is refered to as a Cmaj7#11 chord, albeit in root position (meaning "root on the bottom") closed voicing (meaning "no skipped chord tones, in order") which isn't usually the best or hippest-sounding choice. Still, note that the F# is located a major 7th above the G with which it would "clash." That interval is a fairly pleasant sound to our ears. It is also a major 9th above the E.
If we derive the same chord using a strict C major scale, we get...
C,E,G,B,D,F
This chord really has no name or use that I'm aware of...I guess one could call it some kind of major 7 sus chord, or "Cmaj7add4," but in tertiary harmony it's rarely used. Now note that the F is a minor 9th above the E, which is a very dissonant sound, ruining whatever sense of repose or resolution major chords usually provide, and it is also a minor 7th above the G, furthing adding to the tension by making the top for notes sounds like a G7, the dominant or V7 chord in the key of C.
We CAN "force fit" these notes into a sound that works in certain styles of jazz playing by moving away from tertiary harmony and in to tne world of quartal harmony, which relies more on "planing" rather than typical root movement and on various modes more than major or minor. Miles' "So What," utilizing D and Eb dorian and mostly quartal voicings is a good early example, as is Herbie Hancock's "Maiden Voyage."
A new strictly quartal voicing (stacked 4ths instead of 3rds) for our bizarre chord above could be..
D,G,C,F,B,E
Note that now the E is above the F, getting rid of the minor 9th clash and turning it into a major 7th. The C is buried in the middle of the chord, which along with the fourthy more open sound of this voicing obscures its role as any kind of root or tonal center. The minor 7th between G and F is still present, but with rhe C in the middle and the B outside that interval, the dominant 7th sound of a G7 chord, present in the previous example, is much less prevalent. If you play this chord as is on piano, lock your hands in the position, and move up and down the white keys, it really sounds pretty cool, and similar to voicings Bill Evans uses while comping on So What, although it's not exactly the same. The voicings there used have a third on top of the voicing...here's the first two voicings of the "So What" reponse to the bass solo line, spelled bottom to top..
"So..." - E,A,D,G,B
"What...." - D,G,C,F,A
Notice that the second example starts out like our attempt to voice the weird chord that started this rambling, but abandons the B and E, replacing them with an A instead. Another way of looking at these voicings is two stacked fourths on the bottom, and a 2nd inversion tertiary chord on top, with the two sharing the middle note. Move THAT around the piano, using D dorian as the base (the notes from C major, but resting more on Ds and Fs than Es and Cs), and you'll have some pretty great sounds.
Pardon the digression... I love this stuff.
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Don't know if you'll see this or not, but nothing I wrote was personal in the least. The statements that "sometimes an Aeolian scale has a raised 6th" and others like it were simply incorrect; an Aeolian scale, by definition, never has a raised 6th. Since we're trying to help others learn this stuff, isn't it best to make sure WE are accurate? I got called out for using the term "root" for the first note of a scale or mode, when "tonic" is really more correct or accurate word. Didn't bother me one bit...I appreciated it.
Like I said, it certainly wasn't personal. I was correcting a single statement, not an entire human being. We are all wrong occasionally. The Good Lord frequently reminds me of my failings....His seat is more than safe from any challenges by me!
Cheers.
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