Bass sound on stages

[mrcbass]

So I'm finding that at certain venues, I can't hear my cab very well on stage - even at volumes that I'm asked to turn down from. It's hard to determine why this happens when at some places, I get to enjoy a nice full sound that feels too loud on stage, but is fine in the mix.

I always use one or two 210 cabs that sit on a metal amp stand so my cabs are somewhat isolated from the "stage". Some variation of this:

This weekend I played two gigs; first was in doors on a floor that had some synthetic "wood" on concrete. Could not hear a thing all night. Yesterday I played indoors on a wooden platform stage, and it was a great big enjoyable sound.

I got to thinking that perhaps the "stage" being hollow and wooden helps this (I can feel the bass in my feet). It seems the stand is transferring some energy to the floor, which I was not expecting.

So first is there any truth to this "theory", that a wooden stage helps boost the bass output?

If so, could I accomplish some of that benefit by building a little hollow box for under my stand - or would it need to be bigger than I'd want to manage for it work?

Thanks

 

[AndyLES]

The issue might be EQ - midrange is the money, so to speak.

 

[Killing Floor]

The floor and the room shape, size, construction definitely have an impact on your sound. Have you tried firing the drummer or changing the orientation of your amp?

 

[pfschim]

stages and rooms all have different effects on sound ... and bass is particularly impacted by these variations.

AndyLES already mentioned EQ and mids. Another option is to tilt back your rig if possible so it's more oriented to your ears. I see that you have your cabs raised, which could help, but they are still probably mostly hitting your legs.

Another option, depending on your PA situation is to use a wedge monitor, or even IEM's. A well thought out monitor setup can really help make the sound you hear much more consistent and less effected by the environment of your gigging spaces/stages etc.

good luck OP

 

[s0c9]

So I'm finding that at certain venues, I can't hear my cab very well on stage - even at volumes that I'm asked to turn down from. It's hard to determine why this happens when at some places, I get to enjoy a nice full sound that feels too loud on stage, but is fine in the mix.

I always use one or two 210 cabs that sit on a metal amp stand so my cabs are somewhat isolated from the "stage". Some variation of this:
View attachment 4812329

This weekend I played two gigs; first was in doors on a floor that had some synthetic "wood" on concrete. Could not hear a thing all night. Yesterday I played indoors on a wooden platform stage, and it was a great big enjoyable sound.

I got to thinking that perhaps the "stage" being hollow and wooden helps this (I can feel the bass in my feet). It seems the stand is transferring some energy to the floor, which I was not expecting.

So first is there any truth to this "theory", that a wooden stage helps boost the bass output?

If so, could I accomplish some of that benefit by building a little hollow box for under my stand - or would it need to be bigger than I'd want to manage for it work?

Thanks

That rig should be plenty loud. Unless you're standing right in front of it, I don't understand why you can't hear it ..

 

[mrcbass]

That rig should be plenty loud. Unless you're standing right in front of it, I don't understand why you can't hear it ..

Well I often am right in front of it - and in both of my examples I was as well. I'm aware of the volume travel and am used to the volume being next to noting in some cases. When ever I have an experience where the bass is booming foe me and I'm not being asked to turn down, I'm surprised. I'm also quite aware that rooms/environments have a lot to do with the overall tone - I use an HPF to remove the boominess that some rooms provide.

But it seems whenever I play on a wood stage, the experience is better than when I'm on concrete. That's why I was asking about creating a small stage for the cab, hoping it will give me that on concrete.

 

[lowtom]

The issue might be EQ - midrange is the money, so to speak.

I second that. I do have the same problem even in rehearsal space. Too litte mid range.
i like that boomy clinky sound with bass and treble up and mids down. The typical classical way, not to do it, if you want to hear yourself in the mix.
Problem is, that turning up volume up with this setting doesnt impact that much, and you will get too much low frequencies and just the boomy stuff.
So (for me) i am working on a way now, to get more mids in the mix, and like the sound i am getting. I am not there yet.
But i think you should try turning up the mids to sort out, if this fixes your problem or not.

 

[Jett Litt]

Well I often am right in front of it - and in both of my examples I was as well. I'm aware of the volume travel and am used to the volume being next to noting in some cases. When ever I have an experience where the bass is booming foe me and I'm not being asked to turn down, I'm surprised. I'm also quite aware that rooms/environments have a lot to do with the overall tone - I use an HPF to remove the boominess that some rooms provide.

But it seems whenever I play on a wood stage, the experience is better than when I'm on concrete. That's why I was asking about creating a small stage for the cab, hoping it will give me that on concrete.

Is your HPF adjustable? One approach is to raise it to 90-100 hz and then boost bass slightly on the amplifier EQ.

Another potential problem is comb filtering, and this can cancel out frequencies that are useful for hearing yourself properly at lower volumes. When you have speakers situated on a horizontal and vertical plane. The speakers fight and cancel each other out.

I see your using a rack so it limits your options sightly, but you already have a stand to place it on. I would try to place the speaker's straight up like an array. Then you can try to use only the top cabinet (watch wattage/ohm capabilities) once you get that top cab dialed in. Then plug in the bottom cabinet and adjust your HPF for that if you need more volume.

Generally if you're being asked to turn down but can't hear yourself, it's a combination of comb filtering (speaker positioning vertical or horizontal), EQ deficiencies, or there is an offending frequency coming from the bass cabs. You need to find the overwhelming frequency that is causing havoc.

I always find it's best to neuter your tone so it isn't taking over any given frequency in the room. And, then slowly bring back in the sounds and balls you want to hear.

One convenient way to do this is by recording a bass riff loop into a looper pedal and play that through your rig. Then you can place your bass down for a moment and turn knobs.

 

[Zbysek]

So I'm finding that at certain venues, I can't hear my cab very well on stage - even at volumes that I'm asked to turn down from. It's hard to determine why this happens when at some places, I get to enjoy a nice full sound that feels too loud on stage, but is fine in the mix.

Welcome in my world!

I got to thinking that perhaps the "stage" being hollow and wooden helps this (I can feel the bass in my feet). It seems the stand is transferring some energy to the floor, which I was not expecting.

So first is there any truth to this "theory", that a wooden stage helps boost the bass output?

Yes. Hollow wooden stage works as a huge resonator. The problem is that it's uncotrollable...so it's usually considered a bad thing, not a good thing.

If so, could I accomplish some of that benefit by building a little hollow box for under my stand - or would it need to be bigger than I'd want to manage for it work?

I doubt it would work. For the box to have the effect you desire your would need to stand on it.

You might try any of the following:

1. Put the cabs on the floor.
Cab standing on the floor projects more bass frequencies than when it's lifted. I recommend placing the cabs like this:

2. Boosting bass frequencies.
As you can see from the picture, I had been using the same cabs as yourself for several years. They are mid forward, IME.

3. Getting tactile transducer
It seems to me that you like to feel the bass in your feet. Eich Bassboard gives you that.

BassBoards | EICH Amplification

 

[Zbysek]

This is how the Eich Bassboard looks like...

 

[FirewalZ]

I have this issue usually when I’m standing to close to the cabinet, I’d say 6ft or less. Also in big boomy echo chamber type rooms. What helps is getting the cabinet up closer to ear level, put it back further on the stage, eq and/or hp-lp filter.

 

[One Way]

This may or may not apply however I’ll toss it out there. The other night I couldn’t hear my bass well when the mix was good out front. We high passed the vocal channels and pulled back a bit more from the vocal channels around 300 HZ. Like magic my Jazz bass came through clear and punchy on stage and out front, too. Band members commented my bass never sounded so good, and I didn’t change anything. YMMV

 

[micguy]

Hearing yourself well is easy with an ampless setup and in ears, once you get past the learning curve - all those worries about acoustics in the room and such become things you let FOH worry about.

 

[two fingers]

1) Turn your mids up. You have cut most of the frequencies that can be heard and only left tue ones that can he felt. As such, you're totally at the mercy of your environment.

2) If you don't have to tweak your amp regularly, reverse your rig. Put the rack on the ground. Then stack your two cabs VERTICALLY on top of it. (If that makes you queasy just set the rack to one side and stack the cabs on the ground/stage.) But make sure you stack them vertically. In other words, do it like this. It will make all the difference in the world in how you hear your rig. Tremendous difference.

Yanking out all of your mids is a bedroom tone. It's no good for the stage. Put some mids back in and stack your rig vertically. You'll be a happy bass player.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

So I'm finding that at certain venues, I can't hear my cab very well on stage - even at volumes that I'm asked to turn down from. It's hard to determine why this happens when at some places, I get to enjoy a nice full sound that feels too loud on stage, but is fine in the mix.

I always use one or two 210 cabs that sit on a metal amp stand so my cabs are somewhat isolated from the "stage". Some variation of this:
View attachment 4812329

This weekend I played two gigs; first was in doors on a floor that had some synthetic "wood" on concrete. Could not hear a thing all night. Yesterday I played indoors on a wooden platform stage, and it was a great big enjoyable sound.

I got to thinking that perhaps the "stage" being hollow and wooden helps this (I can feel the bass in my feet). It seems the stand is transferring some energy to the floor, which I was not expecting.

So first is there any truth to this "theory", that a wooden stage helps boost the bass output?

If so, could I accomplish some of that benefit by building a little hollow box for under my stand - or would it need to be bigger than I'd want to manage for it work?

Thanks

You're probably standing too close to your amp, and have your mids cut.

And yes, that rig is too loud for a stage with a decent sound guy. The other places you mentioned, have a terrible sound guy.

Stack your cabs vertically. Set your amp on the ground next to them. This will put your speakers up where your ears are.

 

[2thAche]

Seems like certain physical locations will do that acoustically, or maybe some put so much guitar at you that it obscures some bass. In-ears is probably the best solution IMO, but I've found that to be imperfect as well 'cause you're not hearing the same thing tonally as your rig, so sound check becomes important.

 

[bigswifty1]

So I'm finding that at certain venues, I can't hear my cab very well on stage - even at volumes that I'm asked to turn down from. Thanks

I bet every bass player who's played out regularly has experienced this. I'll leave the questions you had about stages and floors to the many people who know more about it than I do.

Often you don't get much control over a bunch of things which can be a problem - your cab position, the mix, how widely eq'd the kick drum is, an over zealous left hand on the keys, the venue. Even worse the venue can change during a performance which ..... well we regularly play at a venue that has a long series of bifold doors covering the entire room. People eat dinner on the far side of the bifold doors. When dinner is done, then they open all the doors. And the venue filling or emptying of people. Or time-based volume constraints kicking in. There are lots of things conspiring to mess with your sound and you have to be flexible, think on your feet, and most importantly, have tools at your disposal ....... about which ......

Sticking to the things directly under your control, plenty of midrange (as many have said). And an adjustable HPF (as many have said). Sometimes your sound is ok at sound check but when things actually kick off it all gets kooky. I like an active bass so I can have some control/redress/payback as we play (we don't pause between songs). Obviously you have to be careful with this if your bass is going through the PA.

 

[two fingers]

Hearing yourself well is easy with an ampless setup and in ears, once you get past the learning curve - all those worries about acoustics in the room and such become things you let FOH worry about.

This is also true.

 

[Amajew]

I agree with starting with the vertical stack. My pair of 212's blooms very well when they're vertical vs horizontal!

 

[RattleSnack]

1. Is your amp sound only there for stage (XLR out to mixer and PA)?
If that is the case, you have to clearly SEPARATE those two in your mind: stage sound and PA sound. Your stage sound is there for you (and your band) to hear. It doesn't have to be amazing produced sound, it has to be understandable. In that case, tweek EQ to get there: start with flat EQ, if needed add high mids, remove lows, etc. I've had weird situations with extra boomy overwhelming PA bass on stage, so that I had to: a) lay combo almost ON IT'S BACK pointing at my head, b) remove lows and low mids, c) add high mids, producing ugly sound, that is hearable and has clear pitch, so that I can play. That's monitoring.

2. Is your amp sound there for audience (no PA)?
Like already mentioned, go for vertical cab stack. You can even separate cabs, have one on the ground, than amp and something else, and the other one high enough so that it's ponting at your ears. Also, consider EQ-ing differently. Start with flat and add just a little bit of lows to fill in band sound. In 90% of situations it's good enough.