Bass speakers advice chat

[TICKLEDICK]

Advice for a bass cab/should I just create a custom cab to get what I need.

Hi all I'm new here, this looks like a great site for tones of awesome information and such.

So recently I got back into bass after about a decade away, I have forgotten some of the knowledge I used to know about speakers and cabs so I'll go through my set up and what I want to get from it to help with getting the advice I need the easiest.

I have a 5 string Cort space 5 tuned to
G
D
A
E
A

I've just picked up a headrush flex prime board which has some great possibilities for sculpting the tones I want.

I will be playing in a metal band, I from having the same pick ups before in my old 6 string btb thru neck know that the bartilonis can be a bit muddy to a degree, I tbf got really good tones from mine in my old bass, I just used a bit more attack on my compressor with some extra mod and treble.

What I wanna get from my rig is an aggressive tone that has a clear and depth to the low bass notes with the addition of mids and treble cuting through for a more modern metal bass tone.
something more akin to a meshuggah 8 string guitar kinda vibe but with more bass.
For reference (meshuggah clockworks) is what I'm thinking of.

My friends lending me his 4x10 ampeg rig for a bit so I can see how I like that, but I was also thinking maybe making a custom cab would be better, maybe use an eminence 1 x 15 inch speaker, 1 x 12 and 4 x 10 (angled) just so I can get the full range of what I'm after.

Likely that would be massive over kill and completely unnecessary but I just want to create the best touring rig I can that will give me the most diversity.
even if it means creating a franken cab

Like I said it's been a long time since I looked into building a cab so I'm sorry if anything I've said sounds stupid

unless anyone has a better suggestion will run my headrush into a power amp then the into a cab
(likely an electro Harmonix magnum 44) I used one in the past with a 2 x 12 Mesa cab and a line 6 hd pod pro rack unit which was awesome.


To sum it up...
1. So im looking for ideas for cabs with speakers that can handle a diverse range with clarity.
2. looking at modding suggestions for a cab to get this.
3. Or should I build a cab and if so what speakers do you all recommend to create a balanced sound with deep clear lows, while keeping good clarity in the mids and trebles.


Thanks for reading the waffle
Much appreciated
Ben

 

[Wasnex]

Which choice is best depends on your knowledge level and how much you want to spend. If you had the right skill and knowledge to do a good job building your own, you probably wouldn't ask. So my guess is off-the-shelf is probably a better choice. The trick is finding what you want. It can take a lot of research and you really won't know for sure until you can try the cab you think is best. These days it can be hard to find cabs to demo.

In general, buying an off-the-shelf cab will cost less building your own because of economy of scale. The cost of buying a complete system is almost always less than the cost of buying the components of the system separately.

Building a good original cab design takes serious engineering. You can't just buy random components and build a box with random dimensions. If you want a certain sound, you have to choose drivers with the right characteristics and then build a box that is tuned to get the desired results. The cab is tuned to optimize the performance of the specific driver you choose. Also, the way you tune the cab may vary depending upon the sound and performance you want.

Generally prototyping is required to make sure the design actually does what you want. You may have to make adjustments over the course of multiple prototypes, or perhaps in some instances you can modify the tuning of one prototype. For example, you may modify the length length of ports.

Building a cab can be fun and provide pride and personal satisfaction for a job well done. So if you enjoy this sort of project, go for it. Just keep in mind it will probably be expensive to build a cab that will out perform the quality options available to you.

 

[TICKLEDICK]

Which choice is best depends on your knowledge level and how much you want to spend. If you had the right skill and knowledge to do a good job building your own, you probably wouldn't ask. So my guess is off-the-shelf is probably a better choice. The trick is finding what you want. It can take a lot of research and you really won't know for sure until you can try the cab you think is best. These days it can be hard to find cabs to demo.

In general, buying an off-the-shelf cab will cost less building your own because of economy of scale. The cost of buying a complete system is almost always less than the cost of buying the components of the system separately.

Building a good original cab design takes serious engineering. You can't just buy random components and build a box with random dimensions. If you want a certain sound, you have to choose drivers with the right characteristics and then build a box that is tuned to get the desired results. The cab is tuned to optimize the performance of the specific driver you choose. Also, the way you tune the cab may vary depending upon the sound and performance you want.

Generally prototyping is required to make sure the design actually does what you want. You may have to make adjustments over the course of multiple prototypes, or perhaps in some instances you can modify the tuning of one prototype. For example, you may modify the length length of ports.

Building a cab can be fun and provide pride and personal satisfaction for a job well done. So if you enjoy this sort of project, go for it. Just keep in mind it will probably be expensive to build a cab that will out perform the quality options available to you.

Thanks for the reply, is must appreciated, building the cab itself is not issue really, the main thing really is spending the time to relearn and soak up knowledge I used to have about cab design that I have definitely forgotten at this point.

Skills wise I'm good with wood and building and have the tools, soon I'm going to start building guitars or at least build a few for myself as I've designed a good few multi scale guitars and bass'es.

like you say it's going to be more expensive for sure which is for now definitely a factor I have to think about but I can buy the components over a year or so while I'm relearning and learning more about cab design, I'm not in a rush.

Prototyping isn't an issue really as I can make sure my design should be a good start, (should ) I'll try and make the first prototype in a way that I can modify it a few times before needing to just make a new cab case, should give me more of an idea of what I need to do to get where I want for other iterations.

Testing cabs is a bit of a pain these days tbf, I'll have to see what PMT in Bristol has out to test and take my small rig and bass with me .
Will at least give me more information on what sounds closest to what I want from testing different cabs/speakers and speaker size combinations

 

[agedhorse]

Good used cabinets are almost always less expensive than building yourself, and they are usually better as well. The added bonus is that you can try before you buy.

 

[TICKLEDICK]

Good used cabinets are almost always less expensive than building yourself, and they are usually better as well. The added bonus is that you can try before you buy.

True, I'll most likely just try as many cabs as I can, with me using digital modelling I may not need yo worry as much as I can make a lot of adjustments digitally. Just need to find the right cab that will hold clarity and keep the lows aggressive.
Thanks for the reply

 

[BruceG68]

What Agedhorse and Wasnex have told you is the safer/cost effective route to go.Which is to buy used proven designs where engineers and people in the know have done all the heavy lifting and homework for you.But if you are ready to take a running dive off the deep end into building your own cabs there are some ways of lessoning your risk of building something bad.If you go to sites like Parts Express or USSpeakers they will have everything you need such as corners,jack plates,jacks,grills,cabinet coatings,casters,feet,speakers in various sizes etc.A lot of manufacturers like Eminence,PRV,B+C and others have tried and proven plans.I built a pair of 210 cabs some years back that I'm real proud of and sound great.Plus you can email most manufacturers and they can give you some good advice.Measure twice,cut once and plan ahead.Good Luck!

 

[TICKLEDICK]

What Agedhorse and Wasnex have told you is the safer/cost effective route to go.Which is to buy used proven designs where engineers and people in the know have done all the heavy lifting and homework for you.But if you are ready to take a running dive off the deep end into building your own cabs there are some ways of lessoning your risk of building something bad.If you go to sites like Parts Express or USSpeakers they will have everything you need such as corners,jack plates,jacks,grills,cabinet coatings,casters,feet,speakers in various sizes etc.A lot of manufacturers like Eminence,PRV,B+C and others have tried and proven plans.I built a pair of 210 cabs some years back that I'm real proud of and sound great.Plus you can email most manufacturers and they can give you some good advice.Measure twice,cut once and plan ahead.Good Luck!

I appreciate your reply mate, likely I'll grab a cab for now and next year after some more research I'll have a crack at making something with all the information I acquire over the next year.

 

[Guitalia]

You're planning to play a 5-string bass, with the low string turned to A, in a metal band, using an Electro-Harmonix 44 Magnum power amp, but it's the cabinet that you're worried about? If yes, best of luck.

For those not familiar: it's a tiny 44-watt power amp meant to sit on a guitarist's pedalboard.

 

[jthisdell]

Being in the UK I would suggest looking at Barefaced cabs.

 

[Redbrangus]

I agree with @Guitalia, that amp doesn't have nearly enough power for a bass amp in that setting. It might work OK enough for a guitar player, but not for bass.

 

[JimChjones]

Absolutely agree with what's been said above on the advantages of going for a good manufacturer's cab.

On your original idea of mixing 15s, 12s and 10s, it seems logical to get the best from each, but it doesn't really seem to work. One reason is that all bass speakers are designed for the same job, so really aren't that different. Stolen from the eminence web site I've superimposed* the frequency response charts of Kappalite 15LF - their low frequency specialist in the Kappalite range - the Kappalite 12 HO and the Deltalite 10 ( I didn't see a Kappalite 10 other than an LF version). As you can see by and large they aren't so very different, which is unsurprising really as they are all targeted at the same instrument and same ears. I certainly can't imagine using a crossover between them. Even with the 15LF, which is notoriously dark in the mids, things don't look so very different up to 2K. To me (and admittedly I am a million miles from an expert in these matters) it seems clear that there is little point in mixing up 10s, 12s and 15s because there is so little of the frequency range where they are actually doing anything significantly different. Better, I suggest, to pick one size or another, and use a dedicated mid and/or HF unit if you need more where the bass guitar speakers are giving up.

I haven't tried doing a comparison like this before, quite instructive I thought. I can certainly see why manufacturers these days just put a horn of some kind in bass guitar speakers rather than having a more sophisticated 3 way setup.

*very crudely - that's why its so faint - sorry.

 

[TICKLEDICK]

You're planning to play a 5-string bass, with the low string turned to A, in a metal band, using an Electro-Harmonix 44 Magnum power amp, but it's the cabinet that you're worried about? If yes, best of luck.

For those not familiar: it's a tiny 44-watt power amp meant to sit on a guitarist's pedalboard.




View attachment 7228795

well i know it worked with my guitar into a mesa cab from a line 6 hd pod pro rack unit and was so loud it was insane, if its not enough power for a bass thats fine but maybe offer some advice instead?
what power amp would you use? or reccomend using?

 

[TICKLEDICK]

Being in the UK I would suggest looking at Barefaced cabs.

thnaks i will check them out mate.

just checking some of his youtube videos out im going to see if i can try his cabs once im set up as the speakers sound really good.

 

[TICKLEDICK]

I agree with @Guitalia, that amp doesn't have nearly enough power for a bass amp in that setting. It might work OK enough for a guitar player, but not for bass.

fair enough i just remember it was so loud with my old set up that i could only use it on about 20% volume, figured it would be strong enough, what power amp would you reccomend?

 

[TICKLEDICK]

Absolutely agree with what's been said above on the advantages of going for a good manufacturer's cab.

On your original idea of mixing 15s, 12s and 10s, it seems logical to get the best from each, but it doesn't really seem to work. One reason is that all bass speakers are designed for the same job, so really aren't that different. Stolen from the eminence web site I've superimposed* the frequency response charts of Kappalite 15LF - their low frequency specialist in the Kappalite range - the Kappalite 12 HO and the Deltalite 10 ( I didn't see a Kappalite 10 other than an LF version). As you can see by and large they aren't so very different, which is unsurprising really as they are all targeted at the same instrument and same ears. I certainly can't imagine using a crossover between them. Even with the 15LF, which is notoriously dark in the mids, things don't look so very different up to 2K. To me (and admittedly I am a million miles from an expert in these matters) it seems clear that there is little point in mixing up 10s, 12s and 15s because there is so little of the frequency range where they are actually doing anything significantly different. Better, I suggest, to pick one size or another, and use a dedicated mid and/or HF unit if you need more where the bass guitar speakers are giving up.

I haven't tried doing a comparison like this before, quite instructive I thought. I can certainly see why manufacturers these days just put a horn of some kind in bass guitar speakers rather than having a more sophisticated 3 way setup.

View attachment 7229092
*very crudely - that's why its so faint - sorry.

thank you for this reply, it sums up what i was needing to hear in terms of if its worth it to try mixing speaker sizes.
i really apprecieate it mate.
i guess i will try a load cabs and see what i prefer the sound of, i used to run a 4x10 ashdown years ago (which i liked the sound of) but i know they have a narrow path of sound that they emmit so they only really sound good if you are directly infront of them, though if you have two 4x10 stacked apparently that solves the problem.

thanks again
ben

 

[basscooker]

You'll appreciate the 410 your friend is letting you use.

The 44 will just be rather short on headroom. Our frequency range simply requires more power to push the sorts of volume generally needed to keep up with a full band.

Since you're going to have a proper bass cab available for use, I'd suggest for now you dedicate what budget you can to power. What kind of budget will you be working with? PA power amps could be a option, sure, and are fairly inexpensive on the used market too.

I don't have a specific suggestion here, there are many good ones. Solid bass frequency reproduction requires a lot more power than midrange and higher frequencies do. A lot of folks would agree you're going to want to look for 150 watts as a minimum just to be able to hear yourself. Many would suggest this minimum is closer to 300 watts. I personally would be the latter.

Certainly borrow the 410 and try the Magnum, but you'll agree more power is the priority here.

I'd like to ask what the other members of the group are playing through. If you're playing with 2 guitarists each using 412 cabs and even 50 watt heads, you could find 500 watts barely make it; even through the 410.

 

[agedhorse]

well i know it worked with my guitar into a mesa cab from a line 6 hd pod pro rack unit and was so loud it was insane, if its not enough power for a bass thats fine but maybe offer some advice instead?
what power amp would you use? or reccomend using?

Guitar amplification is a completely different thing.

 

[J Wilson]

I 'd advise steering clear of two usual questions.

First, you're tuned a major 3rd below low B: Leave that to the house system. It's a fool's errand trying to make a stage rig to push fundamentals in the low 20hz range, not to mention the bleed into every mic on stage. What we hear as bass is actually in the 100-200 hz range which is routinely handled by most any commercial cabinets.

Second, as @JimChjones points out, commercial bass guitar bins are all designed as standalone cabinets, which regardless of format, are designed to operate in the same frequency ranges, unlike 2, 3, or even 4-way commercial FOH cabinets which are designed to work together.

IF you find that none of the bass bins you audition aren't right for you, you might want to consider a 2 or 3-way PA bin, with the proviso that it may be almost disturbingly clean vs. bass cabinets (and all the dirty work is done vs. building something similar on your own).

You and your ears will have to decide.

 

[TICKLEDICK]

You'll appreciate the 410 your friend is letting you use.

The 44 will just be rather short on headroom. Our frequency range simply requires more power to push the sorts of volume generally needed to keep up with a full band.

Since you're going to have a proper bass cab available for use, I'd suggest for now you dedicate what budget you can to power. What kind of budget will you be working with? PA power amps could be a option, sure, and are fairly inexpensive on the used market too.

I don't have a specific suggestion here, there are many good ones. Solid bass frequency reproduction requires a lot more power than midrange and higher frequencies do. A lot of folks would agree you're going to want to look for 150 watts as a minimum just to be able to hear yourself. Many would suggest this minimum is closer to 300 watts. I personally would be the latter.

Certainly borrow the 410 and try the Magnum, but you'll agree more power is the priority here.

I'd like to ask what the other members of the group are playing through. If you're playing with 2 guitarists each using 412 cabs and even 50 watt heads, you could find 500 watts barely make it; even through the 410.

hi thanks for the reply, the guitarist is using a rack unit di into pa systems usually. im just getting to join them so i cant remember what it is he uses off the top of my head but ive seen them live and it sounds solid.
over the next year i think the general thought process is get cabs with the band logo on them and go for a more professional look/setup.

i was looking at the ashdown 200w newt amp but i was also looking at rack mounted pa power amps, theres a lot for about £150 too £300 that are good quality so the pa power amp might but the way forwards. used ive seen a couple that might work around the 300w mark for about 75-130 quid which looks promising as a start for a starter rig.

budget wise i can go up to about £300 at the moment, my mates lending me his cab and amp so for a while i wont have to acctually get a power amp super soon so i have time to really look for something thats going to have enough wattage.

"I don't have a specific suggestion here, there are many good ones. Solid bass frequency reproduction requires a lot more power than midrange and higher frequencies do. A lot of folks would agree you're going to want to look for 150 watts as a minimum just to be able to hear yourself. Many would suggest this minimum is closer to 300 watts. I personally would be the latter."

i wasnt really thinking about this when i thought about trying the magnum 44 tbf so likely itll just not be enough.

worst case scenario for a quick set up i could use a tc electronic bq500 500w bass head from thomann for 195 quid then later down the line just streamline the rig down and find new equipment.

 

[TICKLEDICK]

Guitar amplification is a completely different thing.

haha yeh very true