Bass theory question

[mambo4]

I've argued with @SteveCS before, about whether a things like a D7 V chord in the key (signature) of D minor "count" as diatonic.
When I started researching (googling) the idea of "diatonic" chords , his point seemed backed up by the academics ( D minor natural, harmonic and melodic are considered diatonic to D minor.)
diatonic is not as concisely defined as I has imagined, it seems

perhaps key is similarly fuzzy, ultimately.

 

[SteveCS]

diatonic is not as concisely defined as I has imagined, it seems

That's my point about shedding the idea that minor is some mode or whatever of major. In the major key the diatonic framework is pretty simple - 7 notes and 7 basic triads and 7 7th chords (3 primary and 4 secondary) each serving tonic, subdominant or dominant function. In the minor key there are 13 diatonic triads and 16 diatonic 7th chords, including 3 constructed as 'Dominant 7th' chords (IV7, V7 and VII7) and 4 diminished or half-diminished chords. That makes 7 basic chords with 'Dominant' tendencies (i.e. they include at least one tritone), all just lurking there...

Major:

Minor:

 

[HolmeBass]

Me too. Way too much complication getting in the way of getting stuff done. I am usually a fan of Holme’s posts but this is such an overly complex way of looking at it that it defeats the purpose of theory, which is to make things more simple. If I get a chart that has a key sig of F but it represents D minor, it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure it out once you read through the piece.

I am not saying that it does take a brain surgeon. What I am saying is you can’t tell from the key signature what key a piece of music is in.

That’s all I have been saying all along. You have to look at the melody and the chords. That’s how you know what key something is in, or if it is modal.

Beginners DO think the key signature defines the key, and it’s up to us experienced folks to tell them the truth. It does not.

 

[HolmeBass]

If only there was some way to notate this key.

Oh wait, there is.

With a D minor key signature and accidentals for those notes that are not in the natural minor.

What are you arguing exactly?

Arguing that that specific key signature could also be F major. And you won’t know what key the music is until you examine the music itself.

Which you know. So I have to wonder W T F you are arguing about.

 

[JimmyM]

Except that A7 is as diatonic a V chord in D minor as it is in D major. And that's my point on simplicity and the shedding of baggage, and not getting hung up on signatures and notational conventions, looking for or constructing complex theoretical arguments to explain something so simple.

If that's what you mean by diatonic, I have no quarrel with that. But what I DO have a quarrel with is the idea that the key signature doesn't tell you the key when that's its only function. Oh gee, it only narrows it down to two choices? Come on, Steve. You and I both know that if someone can't look at a key sig with one flat and determine whether the song is F or D minor after a quick look see at the notes or chords, then I don't know what to tell them.

 

[SteveCS]

...
But what I DO have a quarrel with is the idea that the key signature doesn't tell you the key when that's its only function. Oh gee, it only narrows it down to two choices?
...

Hi Jimmy - that particular point wasn't one of mine. We are together on this one too. If you look closely (dare you!!) there was a bit of mis-quoting and mis-attribution earlier on which I didn't feel worth getting out of shape over

 

[1String]

The note is obviously E. -snicker- thanks

 

[MtManiac]

Arguing that that specific key signature could also be F major. And you won’t know what key the music is until you examine the music itself.

Which you know. So I have to wonder W T F you are arguing about.

I’m sorry, I thought I was really super clear and consistent, but I guess I have not been.

What I’m saying is that the key signature notates the key.

It tells you which notes are either sharp or flat.

I’m *not* saying the key signature defines whether the key is F or D minor. It seems this is what you hear me saying when in fact what I am saying is that the key signature notates the key.

That is the purpose of the key signature. To *notate* the key. To tell you which notes to read as either sharp or flat or natural. It is a tool of notation to aid in both easier sight reading and easier scoring.

Context will tell you whether or not the key is F or D minor when there is one flat. There is no key of C Mixolydian or G Aeolian Dorian or Bb Lydian. There are major keys which are based on the Ionian mode and minor keys which are based on the Dorian Aeolian mode, and anything else needs to be addressed via accidentals. That is the way standard notation works, and if someone doesn’t like the way standard notation works, well, sorry, it’s a standard, it’s commonly understood in this way not in other ways, if we want to bring in other interpretations it stops being a standard and stops being useful for anybody or anything. Kind of like road signs. Stop means stop, yield does not mean merge, etc.

I hope that clears things up for you, and we can now carry on back to the original discussion of whether an Eb is an E or an Eb or a D#.

 

[AK Bass Guy]

Me too. Way too much complication getting in the way of getting stuff done. I am usually a fan of Holme’s posts but this is such an overly complex way of looking at it that it defeats the purpose of theory, which is to make things more simple. If I get a chart that has a key sig of F but it represents D minor, it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure it out once you read through the piece.

If that's what you mean by diatonic, I have no quarrel with that. But what I DO have a quarrel with is the idea that the key signature doesn't tell you the key when that's its only function. Oh gee, it only narrows it down to two choices? Come on, Steve. You and I both know that if someone can't look at a key sig with one flat and determine whether the song is F or D minor after a quick look see at the notes or chords, then I don't know what to tell them.

Agreed.
No reason to over complicate anything over.
If I see a chart with one flat and the 1 chord rooted in D, I’m going to know right away the songs in Dmin.
If the same chart has C and C# in it then I know in that part of the song we are in melodic minor.

So to tie this back to the original topic for the OP.
That C# in Dmin is noted as such because it quickly tells the reader that we are using the melodic minor, which if we were improvising or walking bass lines would be really important.
If the C# was improperly notated as Db our inclination might be to assume a modulation of key or chord out of the key signature or different key center in that section of music.

 

[Supadope]

I know theorists can get wound up in this, but I don't care. You call E flat or D sharp, I play the same note.

Music theory is not what music is built on - it was derived after the fact to help describe why people like what they like (people played perfectly good music for thousands of years before "music theory" was a thing by listening, and doing what sounded good). When music theory begets discussions like this, it starts to leak outside its usefulness, except as an academic exercise. Feel free to ponder this as long as you like, I have a gig to practice for.

This makes me feel better. I’ve never studied music. I’ve always just played it. One evening my band mates and I were writing a new song. We got tripped up on where to go next. The guitarist, singer/guitarist, and drummer (who’s a gifted musician with an understanding of theory) all started taking theory. I walked around on my bass for a few seconds and said, go to the G. The guys went back and forth for 10 minutes as I stared blankly, utterly confused as what they were talking about. Finally, they all agreed on a conclusion. Go to the G.

 

[mambo4]

It is true that all this discussion is irrelevant to how it sounds
but the OP asked how it is named ( the best answer being post#2 )
presumably, to establish the best way to communicate with other musicians
or equally likely, to spark a 7 page TB thread,

 

[BismarckHerring]

Depends on who I'm talking to. If it's an average guitarist who has tuned to Eb standard, I'll call it an E. It feels wrong, but I prefer that to having that discussion.

To anyone else, I'll call it what it is: an E flat, or occasionally a D sharp.

 

[AK Bass Guy]

Depends on who I'm talking to. If it's an average guitarist who has tuned to Eb standard, I'll call it an E. It feels wrong, but I prefer that to having that discussion.

To anyone else, I'll call it what it is: an E flat, or occasionally a D sharp.

This is a good point.
In a similar situation if I needed a beginner or intermediate skilled trumpet player to play a C who did not know concert pitch, I would just tell them to play a D and be done with it.

 

[JimmyM]

This makes me feel better. I’ve never studied music. I’ve always just played it. One evening my band mates and I were writing a new song. We got tripped up on where to go next. The guitarist, singer/guitarist, and drummer (who’s a gifted musician with an understanding of theory) all started taking theory. I walked around on my bass for a few seconds and said, go to the G. The guys went back and forth for 10 minutes as I stared blankly, utterly confused as what they were talking about. Finally, they all agreed on a conclusion. Go to the G.

Hahah! Sounds like they know just enough to be dangerous. We all go through it at some point.

 

[Stranger Danger]

The top string would be Gb. The bottom would be Eb

Or not

 

[SteveCS]

There are major keys which are based on the Ionian mode and minor keys which are based on the Dorian mode

FWIW (at this stage probably very.little), natural minor - that which is the foundation of the minor key - is coincident with Aeolian mode, not Dorian.

 

[HolmeBass]

I’m sorry, I thought I was really super clear and consistent, but I guess I have not been.

What I’m saying is that the key signature notates the key.

It tells you which notes are either sharp or flat.

I’m *not* saying the key signature defines whether the key is F or D minor. It seems this is what you hear me saying when in fact what I am saying is that the key signature notates the key.

That is the purpose of the key signature. To *notate* the key. To tell you which notes to read as either sharp or flat or natural. It is a tool of notation to aid in both easier sight reading and easier scoring.

Context will tell you whether or not the key is F or D minor when there is one flat. There is no key of C Mixolydian or G Aeolian or Bb Lydian. There are major keys which are based on the Ionian mode and minor keys which are based on the Dorian mode, and anything else needs to be addressed via accidentals. That is the way standard notation works, and if someone doesn’t like the way standard notation works, well, sorry, it’s a standard, it’s commonly understood in this way not in other ways, if we want to bring in other interpretations it stops being a standard and stops being useful for anybody or anything. Kind of like road signs. Stop means stop, yield does not mean merge, etc.

I hope that clears things up for you, and we can now carry on back to the original discussion of whether an Eb is an E or an Eb or a D#.

Minor keys based on Aeolian mode.

Yeah when you typed “notates” I was reading “denotes”. But yes, the key signature gives you which notes will generally be played as non-natural notes, unless further amended by accidentals.

I have had students who had lots of trouble with this. And people ask here on TB what key a given song is in, and this can come up in those threads too. I just want to be very clear that the key signature and the key are two different, albeit related (if the arranger has done their job well), things.

 

[MtManiac]

FWIW (at this stage probably very.little), natural minor - that which is the foundation of the minor key - is coincident with Aeolian mode, not Dorian.

D’oh - you’re right of course. My bad.

 

[MtManiac]

Minor keys based on Aeolian

You’re right of course, in all my furious keyboard pounding in between virtual meetings, replying to work chats, and reading emails I got confounded.

 

[Greenman72]

OP where U at

My brain died some time ago.