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Bass theory question

What note am I playing? (read the first comment)

  • E-flat, since you tuned down from E.

    Votes: 109 73.6%

  • D-sharp, because guitars and basses play in sharps.

    Votes: 7 4.7%

  • E. The open E string is E. Always and forever.

    Votes: 8 5.4%

  • Carrots

    Votes: 24 16.2%
  • Total voters
    148
#101
HolmeBass said:
Exactly - and that also doesn’t let you know what key the piece of music is in.
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The key signature notates the key. That’s what key signatures are and that’s what they do. They tell you things like “all E’s herein are E flats unless otherwise notated”. Pretty important if you’re sitting down and reading a piece of music you’ve never heard before.

I’ve said these are not laws, they’re tools of communication. If you don’t find key signatures useful, that’s fine. Maybe you don’t read notated music, which is totally fine, many very talented people do not. But if you’re going to argue that they’re not useful, which seems like what you are doing, then you should expect resistance from people who find them to be a pretty useful tool, as they’ve been pretty useful for a very long time, and you should probably be presenting an alternative that is more useful, which I’ve not yet seen you or anyone else do.
 
#105
SteveCS said:
The point is that they are not passing tones - the major 6th and 7th are no less diatonic in the minor key than the minor 6th and 7th.
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That’s not the way standard music notation works, though. There is one type of “minor key,” and there are several minor tonalities, modes, or scales. That’s why we’re notating the differences with accidentals.

It’s ok if you don’t like the way standard music notation works, but the way it works is the way it works. You’re free to come up with your own way of communicating ideas, but you can’t pass it off as standard music notation when it isn’t.
 
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#106
HolmeBass said:
You are right, but I have never heard the term “theoretical key”.

And I have seen sheet music with uncomfortable keys, including double flats as accidentals, given a modulation in the music, so a composer is not always going to re-contextualize to a simpler key.

And the main point was that the note D# exists and we need not go to any key more exotic or theoretical than E major to get there.
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there's a big difference between a note - D#, and the idea of it being a tonic.

Yes- theoretical key just means a key that technically could exist, but would contain more than 7 sharps or flats. Anything more than a brief time in a key like this it would be not just acceptable but 'correct' to re-spell it. I'm certain i've seen chopin do this, where some harmonic sequence leads to what should be spelt as G# major, but he switches it to Ab, or something comparable to this.

I just want to be clear since I have not seen whatever music you are referring to - music with double sharps and double flats, sometimes even triple (!) is totally normal and would not be re-spelled. double sharps and double flats are completely normal. It would be incorrect to re-spell an F double sharp as G, in almost all situations.

a key signature that includes more than 7 accidentals "does not exist," and certainly would be functionally obsolete. If you have an example of such a thing please share! I'd assume it would be something composed later than 1930 or so.

I'm definitely not calming to know everything - but I am sharing what is common practice and well established, as far as tonal music goes.
 
#107
MtManiac said:
There is one type of “minor key,” and there are several minor tonalities, modes, or scales. That’s why we’re notating the differences with accidentals.
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The reason for the accidentals is that we don't mix accidentals in key signatures. Even if we did, you would still have to notate them explicitly in the score because there are only 7 letter names on the stave. It is a shortfall in the notation system which is mitigated by the simple convention that the key signature of a minor key contains the accidentals of the Melodic Minor Descending scale. That's it - it has nothing to do with tonality, scale or mode.
 
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#109
SteveCS said:
The reason for the accidentals is that we don't mix accidentals in key signatures. Even if we did, you would still have to notate them explicitly in the score because there are only 7 letter names on the stave. It is a shortfall in the notation system which is mitigated by the simple convention that the key signature of a minor key contains the accidentals of the Melodic Minor Descending scale. That's it - it has nothing to do with tonality, scale or mode.
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I swear I saw several Bb’s, C naturals, and F’s in that score. Was I imagining them, or did I make a mistake in my understanding of the use of the key signature?
 
#111
MtManiac said:
I swear I saw several Bb’s, C naturals, and F’s in that score. Was I imagining them, or did I make a mistake in my understanding of the use of the key signature?
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Of course you saw them - they all 'belong' in the key, as do the B naturals and the C#s. Only you can decide if you made a mistake in understanding, but at this point is might help to go listen to the music:
 
#113
MtManiac said:
This is not a worthy hill for you to choose to die on. It’s very pedantic.

The relative minor is a key which shares the same key signature as its relative major. Again, if I was about to play with someone who was making this a major point of discussion, I’d leave.
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Me too. Way too much complication getting in the way of getting stuff done. I am usually a fan of Holme’s posts but this is such an overly complex way of looking at it that it defeats the purpose of theory, which is to make things more simple. If I get a chart that has a key sig of F but it represents D minor, it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure it out once you read through the piece.
 
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#114
SteveCS said:
Of course you saw them - they all 'belong' in the key, as do the B naturals and the C#s. Only you can decide if you made a mistake in understanding, but at this point is might help to go listen to the music:
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If only there was some way to notate this key.

Oh wait, there is.

With a D minor key signature and accidentals for those notes that are not in the natural minor.

What are you arguing exactly?
 
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#115
SteveCS said:
I didn't mention sections, that was @HolmeBass.

Anyway, you wanted to see a score - this is page 1 of the Prelude to J.S. Bach Cello Suite II, in D Minor, BWV 1008:
View attachment 7271788
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Seems like this proves my original point that D minor is notated with one flat in the key signature since it’s based on F, and accidentals are added as needed. But one quick glance at it shows that it’s going to be D minor and doesn’t need to be spoon fed to the reader. It also shows it may delve into melodic and harmonic minor at times.

I really don’t know what the hubbub is about here.
 
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#116
SteveCS said:
The point is that they are not passing tones - the major 6th and 7th are no less diatonic in the minor key than the minor 6th and 7th.
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Diatonic has nothing to do with it. Chord tones are strong tones, and every other note is a passing tone. Of course this changes with each chord, but against a straight up D minor chord they’re passing tones.
 
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#117
JimmyM said:
It also shows it may delve into melodic and harmonic minor at times.

I really don’t know what the hubbub is about here.
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I'm not sure any more, Jimmy!! It is all about simplicity, and nothing can be more simple than melodic, natural and harmonic minor scales being just 3 equal partners in the key. That's all. There is no melodic or harmonic 'key' - it's all just minor. What could be simpler. No passing notes, tonality shifts, borrowed or parallel modes. Just minor. Plain and simple.
 
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#120
JimmyM said:
Chord tone for A7. And it’s borrowed/altered when the key sig is F/D minor.
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Except that A7 is as diatonic a V chord in D minor as it is in D major. And that's my point on simplicity and the shedding of baggage, and not getting hung up on signatures and notational conventions, looking for or constructing complex theoretical arguments to explain something so simple.
 

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