Bass theory question

[turf3]

Well, I haven't read all seven pages, but this is the classic dilemma of "transposing instruments", only just a variant of it. It's basically a capo in reverse.

In amateur folky circles, people have a real tendency to call tunes by the shapes they're playing and a capo number, so "C, capo 3" "So, Eb" "NO! It's C, capo 3".

Bluegrassers generally comprehend this concept and call the tune in the key it sounds in, especially since bass players don't (usually) have capos and need to know what the actual sounding key is.

Folkies also sometimes get the first chord confused with the key: "That'll be The Day, in C" when they're playing it in G, but the first chord is C. Some people don't know about counting, so if you say "The 5 chord" they can't count up from G.

And there's a tendency amongst rock and rollers to cling to the finger patterns and some of them will absolutely die on that hill: they'll tune the guitars and basses to god only knows what but if it's fingered like an E chord then by God it's an E chord even if the keyboard player's over there playing C#.

Jazz players by and large know that most of their instruments are transposing instruments, so they'll call concert E "concert E" and the tenor sax player knows to play in F# and the guitar player just does what needs to be done to compensate for any special tuning.

Classical players (except trumpet and clarinet) by and large have no idea what you're talking about, unless they were composition minors.

 

[MtManiac]

Well, I haven't read all seven pages, but this is the classic dilemma of "transposing instruments", only just a variant of it. It's basically a capo in reverse.

In amateur folky circles, people have a real tendency to call tunes by the shapes they're playing and a capo number, so "C, capo 3" "So, Eb" "NO! It's C, capo 3".

Bluegrassers generally comprehend this concept and call the tune in the key it sounds in, especially since bass players don't (usually) have capos and need to know what the actual sounding key is.

Folkies also sometimes get the first chord confused with the key: "That'll be The Day, in C" when they're playing it in G, but the first chord is C. Some people don't know about counting, so if you say "The 5 chord" they can't count up from G.

And there's a tendency amongst rock and rollers to cling to the finger patterns and some of them will absolutely die on that hill: they'll tune the guitars and basses to god only knows what but if it's fingered like an E chord then by God it's an E chord even if the keyboard player's over there playing C#.

Jazz players by and large know that most of their instruments are transposing instruments, so they'll call concert E "concert E" and the tenor sax player knows to play in F# and the guitar player just does what needs to be done to compensate for any special tuning.

Classical players (except trumpet and clarinet) by and large have no idea what you're talking about, unless they were composition minors.

I’ve run into a lot of all of this!

 

[SteveCS]

Classical players (except trumpet and clarinet) by and large have no idea what you're talking about, unless they were composition minors.

Ouch!!

 

[dougjwray]

Jimi Hendrix played a bunch of his stuff a half step down. I think of it all as in E regardless, I bet he did too. I think it's totally reasonable to do the same with a capo as well and assign the nearest sensible key to the musical ideas for ease.

whether bass or baritone or tenor or whatever I feel the fretted guitar lends itself to these sorts of folk transpositions

At the Monterey Pop festival, Hendrix played "Can You See Me", and he announced that it was "in the key of F#."
I just listened to it, and it's in F concert, i.e. if the Experience had included a pianist, that person would have played it in F.
Unfortunately, no films exist. So we can't see where on the guitar Jimi placed his right hand when he played it!

(Now I'm completely confused.)

 

[groovepump]

D# is a "theoretical key," but not an actual key. It would have every note sharp as well as F double sharp and C double sharp.

sometimes, a composer would actually write in that key if it's a brief time, since it may in some context be grammatically (musically) correct.

but if we're modulating to that key, it's not particularly logical to write all sharps with two double-sharps, when three flats is the enharmonic equivalent.

there are lots of examples of serious composers re-spelling the key to avoid theoretical keys. I can't think of any off hand, but I know i've seen it - likely 19th century pianist/composers such as Chopin would be the first place to look.

I remember in high school orchestra there was a piece we played with double sharps ( i don't remember what it was, and had forgotten all about it until now), but in the band I play in, such things don't matter. All this theoretical stuff would be totally lost with the band-leader guitarist(s), who don't read music anyway. One doesn't even know most of the notes on the fretboard, We are one of the highest paid local bands in our area, which just shows that it really doesn't matter to the dancing drunks if you play an Eb or a D#.... they clap and tip, and at the end of the day, that's why I'm there anyway.

 

[groooooove]

I remember in high school orchestra there was a piece we played with double sharps ( i don't remember what it was, and had forgotten all about it until now), but in the band I play in, such things don't matter. All this theoretical stuff would be totally lost with the band-leader guitarist(s), who don't read music anyway. One doesn't even know most of the notes on the fretboard, We are one of the highest paid local bands in our area, which just shows that it really doesn't matter to the dancing drunks if you play an Eb or a D#.... they clap and tip, and at the end of the day, that's why I'm there anyway.

of course!

there is a huge difference between analyzing music for study, or to progress as a composer or musician..

and playing live in modern days, electric music, played in nightclubs where the booze is flowing.

the beatles knew nothing of double sharps, it's fine.

at a young age, Mozart understood this the way you understand "there they're their"

perhaps a bad example since many of us still get that wrong...

but anyway, im sure you get what I mean.

 

[12BitSlab]

I remember in high school orchestra there was a piece we played with double sharps ( i don't remember what it was, and had forgotten all about it until now), but in the band I play in, such things don't matter. All this theoretical stuff would be totally lost with the band-leader guitarist(s), who don't read music anyway. One doesn't even know most of the notes on the fretboard, We are one of the highest paid local bands in our area, which just shows that it really doesn't matter to the dancing drunks if you play an Eb or a D#.... they clap and tip, and at the end of the day, that's why I'm there anyway.

In the editions of The Arban’s Method that were written by Arban (i.e., before the 1935 edition), there was an entire section devoted to keys with double flats and double sharps. The exercises for the rest of the book after that section included exercises for the techniques being taught and they included the keys that don’t exist.

I had 10 years of private trumpet lessons focused solely on classical music. My teacher did not like the fact that the editions from 1935 and onward were watered down. The edition I studied was a late 1800’s version.

 

[SteveCS]

In the editions of The Arban’s Method that were written by Arban (i.e., before the 1935 edition), there was an entire section devoted to keys with double flats and double sharps. The exercises for the rest of the book after that section included exercises for the techniques being taught and they included the keys that don’t exist.

I had 10 years of private trumpet lessons focused solely on classical music. My teacher did not like the fact that the editions from 1935 and onward were watered down. The edition I studied was a late 1800’s version.

I have a Max Reger book on Modulation - it includes examples of possible ways of getting from any major or minor key to any other major or minor key, including 'theoreticial' ones like Fb, Bbb and the aforementioned D#.