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Bass through the PA or not?

#21
I wouldn't run the bass through that pa unless you added a set of subs to it.

I like to have everything running through the pa, so you can control the overall sound of the band, but I'm afraid that putting too much through those speakers will as a posters have said, rob them of power and reduce the vocal presence.

My band pa uses 12" tops, but we have 18" subs as well. The sound of the bass and kick drum is huge, and the 12" tops sound a lot nicer than 15" tops IMO.

I'd save up, buy some 18" subs, and get the whole band through the pa.
 
#22
Hello to all! I am the FOH at a fairly medium church (seats apprx 500.) with a very noticeable echo (from clapping) and empty. My questions are these: How do I keep our bassist from turning his knobs on his amp? He may play one measure, turn his knobs. My problem is this, our decibel level is 100- 108 (c Weighted) fast response, and he is the problem. When he is not there, we run at about 95. I am in the process of running him through my board (Mackie 1604 VLZ) from his Carvin's DI back to his cabinet from my aux 4 send. I have had it this way to control his on stage volume (cannot hear the vocals with him cranking through his amp and cab.) He says "that he is looking for his tone". This past Sunday I had it almost perfect. What does he do, start turning knobs. I can look and see that my peak light lights up letting me know that he has turned up his gain. He says he cannot hear the bass. But I can see it on our decibel indicator. He also has the amp and case sitting right next to him at the FRONT of the musicians and in front of the congregation. TOTALLY drowning out the rest of the musicians and vocals. He also unhooked my cabling and rehooked his cable to his amp out. I lost it! Am I wrong in stating that a musician NEVER changes a FOH setup during a "gig" / service? I promise, he is never satisfied with the sound. Isnt the best place for a cabinet in the back of it all. He works on his own basses, changing pickups and preamps (I guess that is what thay are). I need to control his level, PLEASE HELP! I know I ran on, but if you need more information, please ask me!
Blessings to all and thank you in advance
Chuck aka ulremember
 
#23
ulremember said:
Hello to all! I am the FOH at a fairly medium church (seats apprx 500.) with a very noticeable echo (from clapping) and empty. My questions are these: How do I keep our bassist from turning his knobs on his amp? He may play one measure, turn his knobs. My problem is this, our decibel level is 100- 108 (c Weighted) fast response, and he is the problem. When he is not there, we run at about 95. I am in the process of running him through my board (Mackie 1604 VLZ) from his Carvin's DI back to his cabinet from my aux 4 send. I have had it this way to control his on stage volume (cannot hear the vocals with him cranking through his amp and cab.) He says "that he is looking for his tone". This past Sunday I had it almost perfect. What does he do, start turning knobs. I can look and see that my peak light lights up letting me know that he has turned up his gain. He says he cannot hear the bass. But I can see it on our decibel indicator. He also has the amp and case sitting right next to him at the FRONT of the musicians and in front of the congregation. TOTALLY drowning out the rest of the musicians and vocals. He also unhooked my cabling and rehooked his cable to his amp out. I lost it! Am I wrong in stating that a musician NEVER changes a FOH setup during a "gig" / service? I promise, he is never satisfied with the sound. Isnt the best place for a cabinet in the back of it all. He works on his own basses, changing pickups and preamps (I guess that is what thay are). I need to control his level, PLEASE HELP! I know I ran on, but if you need more information, please ask me!
Blessings to all and thank you in advance
Chuck aka ulremember
Click to expand...

First of all, yes, he shouldn't be screwing around with the FOH setup in the middle of the gig. Make that clear.

As far as not hearing himself, tell him to boost the mids and take out some lows and he'll cut through better without all the boom - less dB and more bass clarity in the mix for him.

Yes, he should have his bass rig further back. He will actually hear it better that way than having it fire at his knees or lower back.

Some bassists here won't like this, but here it goes....Tell him he needs to stop obsessing over his tone. No one out front cares. You control FOH and will ultimately be in control of his tone with channel eq. He needs to tweak his eq WHILE PLAYING LIVE WITH FULL BAND so he can hear it in the mix and leave it. If his tone is that off, he needs a new bass. Ultimately, he needs to understand that his bedroom jamming tone and what is needed to cut through a live band are two different things.

Somehow get this across diplomatically.:D Good luck.
 
#24
If you say he is too loud it may be a combination of his amp and the p.a.. Your right, his amp needs to be behind him to hear himself. Not in front. If youve got an echoey, building you may need to "crossover " the bass freqs 100 hz or so or raise it to take out bass volume. He may be loud to you but cant hear himself in the mix. Id check to make sure he caint hear for real, instead of just needing to be loud. Put his cab behind him, put someone back there to decide if his bass volume is loud enough to play, another bass player can help with this.
 
#25
I cannot wait until I forward this to my brother (blood) and have him print it!!!! He is a very GOOD percussionist that sits behind him. Praise God for this very fast response!
Also, it is not the pa's volume. I am just now trying to get him in the mix because of past frustrations with him. I also go into a pc for recordings and we also braodcast on our local cable station. He jacks up the mix EVERY time!( I am beginning to think he has a very disruptive spirit.) I have worked and bent bacwards for each musician, giving them the monitor mix they require. The Church bought a bunch of used stuff: DA-7 mixer, 5 nady amps (1- spa 2400 and 4 spa 850's. Nady monitors that sound like tin cans ( poor bass and mid response). Junk nady wireless mikes. About $ 20,000.00 down the draind in a sense. I am now running through the old faithfull Mackie 1604 VLZ. Upgading to a 32 channel analog with compressors for each channel. Looing at the new yamaha (any suggestions for an analog 32 track ?). Again, I want to say thank you for your honesty (it agress with me:hyper: :) ) and professional advice! I know you will hear from me again when I chang his comfort zone.

God's Speedy Blessings to all in attendance!
Chuck aka ulremember
 
#26
No fooling with the FOH hook-up

Talk to him re sidefilling

Make it clear that part of your mission is to make sure his instrument is heard and in order to do that he needs to help you out.

Schedule a time to sit down with him apart from the gig so you can both have a sane huddle about this stuff.

JKT
 
#28
Additional thank yous! JKT, one evening I kid you not, we (myself, bassist, and drummer) did a "sound check" for 2 hours. We made some settings and adjustments he was very pleased with the sound. Using the eq on the board feeding him through aux 4 a solo feed, on a Friday. Mind you, when Sunday came and the service began, he had turned up and around. Asking me what did I do? :). The walls are going to shake on Sunday :). Thanks again for the replies, and you guys have already gotten the ball rolling on a solution!
God's Blessing to all!
The Change Has Begun :) And he aint gonna be happy! But the congregation will be!
Chuck aka ulremember
 
#29
After reading the answers you got Bonzo gave the advice closest to what I feel is the correct answer to your question.What type of music would be a deciding factor.I have played through P.A but the Amp is important for stage volume.
 
#30
We play at our local Church. Seats about 500. Only have about 100 on average. Alot of echo when I clap (empty). Our stage volume is about 110 db's on stage, 98 - 105 in the sanctuary!. TOOOOOOO LOUD! We have seniors that are complaing about headaches. Can you say law .........? ;(
 
#31
BillMason said:
Go through the PA, sure, but don't let them pry your amp from your fingers unless they're cold and dead first. You need a stage monitor, and nothing is better than your bass amp for that.

Funny story - we just did an outdoor wedding gig this past Saturday, and the guitar player noticed me getting my rig our of my truck. He said "Are you going to be using THAT?" We'd rented a subwoofer for FOH, so he assumed that it would be enough for me. I said "better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it." He debated for a second about whether to get his amp, and decided not to. Halfway through the first or second set he was bitching about not being able to hear himself onstage, despite standing in front of a monitor that was angled up at his head. I just looked back, mentally patted my bass amp, smiled, and kept playing. The drummer also had the same debate, and he followed my advice.
Click to expand...

Amen brother. I just did a band practice running only through the PA only and felt like I was fighting all night with the soundman to get "my sound". (I was eq'ing for the monitors and he was countering for the room). I'm bringing my amp next time.
 
#32
I've been in the church-stage-and-feeling-like-there's-no-bass situation. The sound guy keeps telling me to turn down and I feel my amp is barely on. Here's the problems I had: amp's not pointed at my ears, big room without poor sound at my end, guitarists have cranked their bass.

Possible Solutions: Tilt back for amp, put some space between the bassist and amp, have the guitarists reel-in their bass knobs, have the bassist only change his mids. Does his amp have a post/pre EQ switch for direct output? On my amp, nothing I do short of EQ with the switch to Post can affect the FOH. Sound in the room will change when you bring in a bunch of people. Every gig I play I have to adjust for the situation - with my EQ.

Don't be so harsh on the guy for wanting to sound good.
 
#33
Thank you for the replies! Now. As I have read, that the monitor should be AWAY from the bassist. If he is so correct with his ability to turn up his amp, would you consider him correct in his amp placement? NOT. He is a very IMMATURE BASSIST. He has done nothing to correct his actions. Now remember this: There are TWO scenarios we deal with here. I read that someone played and OUTDOOR gig. That would be considered an out side venue. you CAN use your rig to play. INSIDE a SANTCUARY, there is a LOWER volume than for a concert. NO NEED FOR A THUNDEROUS BASS SOUND. Just a lil bass fill. There are concert levels and then there are worship levels. At the reception, do you "jam" while the people are sitting and eating. I do not think so. When it is time to jam, that is when you do it. Most muscians do not know what the sound is like for the audience. That is where the FOH comes in. People wil not say that the bassist messed up the gig, they are going to look at the person in charge of the board. Secondly, if a professional cannot find his or her tone in ONE YEAR, what does that tell you. Heck he builds his own bass. As someone stated before, who but you cares about your tone. This is not a try out for a band. It is a Worship service. Also family, the organist and the bassist ARE tone deaf. A Fact. My monitor leves are higher than my main speakers. I have burned tweeters in our MRX15's by JBL because of clipping. Clipping beacause we cannot hear the vocalist. Now should I continue to burn tweeters ( i know buy bigger amps. we will) or should I have the bassist leave his rig alone and let me do my job? I really appreciate the comments and replies. I respect EACH and EVERY musician out there because I cannot play. As that is said, not everyone that is out there can do what i/we do. So we should be respected also. Not one musician can determine the quality of the sound for the audience while performng on stage.
 
#35
I will jump in here a bit on the church discussion. Hearing onstage as a bassist in a worship situation is not always easy. I have played a similar situation for 8 years now and have gone through a lot of what you are talking about. The biggest factors in getting this under control were:

tilt back or raise the bass amp to aim it at the players ear

get the amp away from the player as much as possible (6-10 ft)

run the bass first through a quality DI that has a phase switch (Radial JDI is great). Sometimes reversing phase between amp and PA can have a big effect

EQ the house sound to supplement the amp rather than the other way around.

The last point seems backwards until you realize that the bassist needs to be able to hear while standing next to the drums which are louder on stage than in the congregation. In addition, bass sounds more cohesive and less boomy coming from a single source. An echo filled room will transmit all the bass that is produced and by running a full bass guitar sound through the mains while having a full bass sound on stage will result in all kinds of sound interference (sound adding in some places and canceling in others). In my situation the low frequencies are entirely covered by the amp on stage (either a 112 or 210 cabinet) and the low end in the mains is rolled off so that the mids and highs are most of what come through. This gives the correct presence and articulation without adding to the mud.
 
#36
ulremember said:
Hello to all! I am the FOH at a fairly medium church (seats apprx 500.) with a very noticeable echo (from clapping) and empty. My questions are these: How do I keep our bassist from turning his knobs on his amp? He may play one measure, turn his knobs. My problem is this, our decibel level is 100- 108 (c Weighted) fast response, and he is the problem. When he is not there, we run at about 95. I am in the process of running him through my board (Mackie 1604 VLZ) from his Carvin's DI back to his cabinet from my aux 4 send. I have had it this way to control his on stage volume (cannot hear the vocals with him cranking through his amp and cab.) He says "that he is looking for his tone". This past Sunday I had it almost perfect. What does he do, start turning knobs. I can look and see that my peak light lights up letting me know that he has turned up his gain. He says he cannot hear the bass. But I can see it on our decibel indicator. He also has the amp and case sitting right next to him at the FRONT of the musicians and in front of the congregation. TOTALLY drowning out the rest of the musicians and vocals. He also unhooked my cabling and rehooked his cable to his amp out. I lost it! Am I wrong in stating that a musician NEVER changes a FOH setup during a "gig" / service? I promise, he is never satisfied with the sound. Isnt the best place for a cabinet in the back of it all. He works on his own basses, changing pickups and preamps (I guess that is what thay are). I need to control his level, PLEASE HELP! I know I ran on, but if you need more information, please ask me!
Blessings to all and thank you in advance
Chuck aka ulremember
Click to expand...
I'd like to chime in on this. IME, I prefer to use a separate DI as opposed to my amps DI. That way, I have control of my stage volume. FOH gets my bass only and my volume is always maxed on my bass. Never do I change it. I've had several instances where my amp DI was used and the FOH kept telling me to to turn my amp down to the point where it was barely audible! Tell that bassist to get a separate DI box (preferably passive).
 
#37
Get another bass player to sit in during rehearsal/performance and have the original bass player go FOH to hear what you hear.

His constant changes to pickups/preamps/tone settings should be left in the bedroom.

Ask him, as a test, to let you set everything up and have him use a wireless so he can hear what you hear.

Don't expect much from the narcissistic knob twiddling hobbyist.
 
#40
I have not been on in a while for a couple of reasons. Organist and bass player. :) I am comtiplating leaving the whole thing alone. It has gotten soooooo bad dealing with UNCOOPERATIVE "musicians"! I trully understand the fact that the bass needs to hear himself. I went to the Church to do a "sound check" the other evening at the request of a VERY COOPERATIVE Drummer and Minister! A very good friend. So I went to the church and saw the ORGANIST and bassist already there. Long story short, organist informs me that the setup will not work. I had a problem the other Sunday when the bass player TURNED HIS BASS DOWN, so that I could not get a strong enough signal to process. So I resorted to increasing the gain on the channel. The more I turned the gain up the more he turned his bass down. Played like a little girl (not plucking the strings but "stroking them") The end result was a woo woo from the speaker cab. Anyhoots, at the sound check, they both were telling me they do not want to be in the house. Forget the broadcast tape, the cd's and DVD's. They were going to control themselves. I almost lost it. But I calmed down and asked them if we could just TRY IT AND SEE! I looked over and they had moved the speaker BACK to his KNEE area. I walked out. So talkbass family, I am in a little bit of a spiritual pickle right now. I do not want to leave per se, but I do not come to my Church home to become stressed out EACH AND EVERY SUNDAY!
I am posting this to say that I really appreciate the help that has been given. Although they say they appreciate me, I get no cooperation. That is what I believe is they key in letting someone know you appreciate them or their doings. COOPERATION! So pray for me that I do the right thing!
Blessings to all!
Chuck aka ulremember:bassist::help:
 

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