Glad everything worked out for the best. Thanks for sharing some great pics and info for us to see.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
basses for newbies (SX batch build thread)
- Thread starter chunger
- Start date
- Status
Sorry to hear my Fender wont work well in the plex.But your jig will now get use. I have played several of your bass guitars at Jasons at they are great.Talk with you soon
thanks for the pics and info, that's a lot of cool stuff to see, I felt like I was there!!! I'm eying my 2 Fenders right now, they could use a PLEK 
BTW impressed by your picture taking ability: very clear pics especially at that aperture you are using. My lens would blur out the out-of-focus unpleasantly at that stop.
BTW impressed by your picture taking ability: very clear pics especially at that aperture you are using. My lens would blur out the out-of-focus unpleasantly at that stop.
edmidlifecrisis
Registered mediocre bass player
thanks for the pics and info, that's a lot of cool stuff to see, I felt like I was there!!! I'm eying my 2 Fenders right now, they could use a PLEK
BTW impressed by your picture taking ability: very clear pics especially at that aperture you are using. My lens would blur out the out-of-focus unpleasantly at that stop.
There were 3 flashes stashed around the perimeter shooting at the ceiling at 1/2 power to get enough light in that space for clear pictures. . . nothing special about the lens and operator ability (although decent). Just an appropriate setup to get nice, sharp photos.
The more I work on Fenders the less I like them
Pencil necks and pencil frets are driving me mad. If your Fenders do not have the teeny tiny frets, they should be good for PLEK. If they do have the teeny tiny frets, I would level by hand.I have the 2nd batch of SX basses going in for PLEK soon-ish (end of Sept?). If anyone else is wanting to get in on that action, shoot me a PM. I will need instruments in hand soon, but be warned, the turn-around time is not exactly quick these days for me as you can see with Mooselumps and Billy's basses.
Sidenote: My Thunderfunk overheated and blew a fuse while friends were rehearsing at my house the other night. . . hope it's nothing serious. For now, I'm rig-less with a whole bunch of great playing basses to test. I also left my camera battery charger and spare battery at the store in Citrus Heights. . . luckily, Roger is going to mail it back to me, but there might be a gap in my coverage if I end up doing a bunch more basses between when my current battery runs out of juice and I get my charger back.
I've been getting emails about PLEK, so I want to give some clarification as I had a conversation with Roger today from Music Go Round. I am required to hold to MAP (retail) pricing on PLEK services if they are being performed as service on customer instruments. I am not able to offer any discounts to end customers so for the end user, there is no financial advantage to having me PLEK your basses. Roger is running a limited time volume discount right now at Music Go Round, so if you have several basses that you would like to do, it may be worth your while to give him a call directly at the number posted in previous post. The advantage to me if I bring your instrument in for PLEK is that "Chinese labor camp #5" gets a few more dollars, but I'm finding more and more that I'm not really into doing service work. . . more into making good new basses that are set up to my liking.
If you were to purchase one of my fully built instruments, however, certain PLEK as well and Nordstrand price advantages would be built into the final price. . . which is the goal of manufacturer or "luthier" pricing structure.
Thanks for all the great info in this thread. I live in Sac and am interested in having a Plek done. Sent ya a PM 
OK. . . I've had a chance to sit now with a few of the PLEK'd basses and have come to a few conclusions.
As of right now, I believe the PLEK'd basses do not play as well as my hand leveled basses. I have a few theories as to why. The PLEK algorithm that was applied to my batch was a general setting that did not take into account the specific vibration characteristics of the strings that I'm running (Dunlop SS Med. gauge). By trial and error, I have been optimizing my setup and leveling processes to make the Dunlops run better and better on my builds and even if the PLEK is more precise in it's measurements and cuts, I have to figure out optimal settings for my strings. . . or change strings.
Mike's string of choice is Rotosound hex core although he prefers flat wounds. It is not a surprise that the instrument that now has the roto's onboard plays very well while the Dunlop ones cannot be set as low as my hand leveled ones. The majority of my issues have been solved by paying particular attention to the fall-away cuts while leveling. It seems for many techs, the fall-away is a bit of an afterthough. With high excursion, low tension strings like the Dunlops, the mid positions (just below 12th fret) are tremendously effected by the fall-off angle. Mike likes running 15 degrees on the fall-away. . . I upped mine to 20, but I probably should have set it to 25 or even the maximum 30 even though it would cut pretty low.
So, I do not believe any of the PLEK'd ones in this batch will be able to run sub .080" @ 12th fret action. That being said, they are running quite smoothly at ~.085" that and if you change over to a DR low rider or a Rotosound roundwound, you can slam that thing right down to .075" or lower.
Playing #17 and #4 back to back, it's obvious #4 runs better. . . while 17 is pretty smooth, #4 kills it all up and down the fretboard in terms of playability, comfort, and resistance to buzz. Jasaman is swinging by tomorrow with the other hand-leveled ones that have not sold and I'll see if he concurs with my opinions. I think I will have to look into the various adjustments that can be made on the PLEK or better yet, throw one of my hand leveled ones on there to scan and see what it is precisely I am doing that makes the hand-levelled jobbies play so well.
So, as of right now, PLEK is not the miracle I was hoping for and my determination to up the game on my hand leveled basses to "compete with the robot" however silly that sounds have led me to be very picky about what a correct setup looks and feels like. I was hoping the PLEK would completely surpass everything I've been doing. It has not yet. Further experimentation and analysis is necessary. I will continue to PLEK because there is simply no way I could have done so many basses so quickly. But, I'll have to sit and think about the process a bit more to figure out how to make the machine carve frets the way I need it to.
Humans win
As of right now, I believe the PLEK'd basses do not play as well as my hand leveled basses. I have a few theories as to why. The PLEK algorithm that was applied to my batch was a general setting that did not take into account the specific vibration characteristics of the strings that I'm running (Dunlop SS Med. gauge). By trial and error, I have been optimizing my setup and leveling processes to make the Dunlops run better and better on my builds and even if the PLEK is more precise in it's measurements and cuts, I have to figure out optimal settings for my strings. . . or change strings.
Mike's string of choice is Rotosound hex core although he prefers flat wounds. It is not a surprise that the instrument that now has the roto's onboard plays very well while the Dunlop ones cannot be set as low as my hand leveled ones. The majority of my issues have been solved by paying particular attention to the fall-away cuts while leveling. It seems for many techs, the fall-away is a bit of an afterthough. With high excursion, low tension strings like the Dunlops, the mid positions (just below 12th fret) are tremendously effected by the fall-off angle. Mike likes running 15 degrees on the fall-away. . . I upped mine to 20, but I probably should have set it to 25 or even the maximum 30 even though it would cut pretty low.
So, I do not believe any of the PLEK'd ones in this batch will be able to run sub .080" @ 12th fret action. That being said, they are running quite smoothly at ~.085" that and if you change over to a DR low rider or a Rotosound roundwound, you can slam that thing right down to .075" or lower.
Playing #17 and #4 back to back, it's obvious #4 runs better. . . while 17 is pretty smooth, #4 kills it all up and down the fretboard in terms of playability, comfort, and resistance to buzz. Jasaman is swinging by tomorrow with the other hand-leveled ones that have not sold and I'll see if he concurs with my opinions. I think I will have to look into the various adjustments that can be made on the PLEK or better yet, throw one of my hand leveled ones on there to scan and see what it is precisely I am doing that makes the hand-levelled jobbies play so well.
So, as of right now, PLEK is not the miracle I was hoping for and my determination to up the game on my hand leveled basses to "compete with the robot" however silly that sounds have led me to be very picky about what a correct setup looks and feels like. I was hoping the PLEK would completely surpass everything I've been doing. It has not yet. Further experimentation and analysis is necessary. I will continue to PLEK because there is simply no way I could have done so many basses so quickly. But, I'll have to sit and think about the process a bit more to figure out how to make the machine carve frets the way I need it to.
Humans win
Very informative as always. I'm a player and not a tech in any sense and I'd never even heard of PLEK before this thread. Interesting!
Chunger - Is it possible to use PLEK to get you 90% of the way there and then do the finishing touches by hand? I guess it's not too surprising to find that the setup is dependent upon the string being used but it must be a little discouraging to find that indeed, one size does not fit all.
Chunger I am no technician but it seems to me the PLEK is only going to do as good of a job as the machine is programmed to do. Once you tweek the program to all your preferred settings it would seem that it will do what you want consistently.
Do you disagree and think each bass needs something different and the consistency of the machine won't help that?
Do you disagree and think each bass needs something different and the consistency of the machine won't help that?
WHAT A SHOCK!!!!
As stated previously, I'll put my level/recrowns up against this overhyped Teutonic snakeoil, any day of the week.
Hmph!
As stated previously, I'll put my level/recrowns up against this overhyped Teutonic snakeoil, any day of the week.
Hmph!
It would seem to me that the PLEK is very useful on the manufacturing end for a company where they are doing many basses with the exact same specs (i.e. Lakland). They can dial in their program to exactly where they want for each model and get it right the majority of the time in a fraction of the time it would take a human to do it by hand.
Based on what I am reading on chungers experience dialing in a one off probably does not warrant the time and expense when it can be done by hand.
Using the term snakeoil insinuates that it is plecebo and does NOTHING that it claims to do, that seems to be a stretch.
I know this has moved a long ways from basses for newbies, but I'm thinking for newbies any action under 1/10" is plenty low, especially with low tension strings (which is also a good choice for newbies).
Hey guys,
Before you jump all over JLS, I'd like to mention that I played one of his basses and his fret leveling methodology is dialed. He utilizes a method with varying lengths of U-shaped extruded aluminum bars to level the frets WITH THE STRINGS ON and tuned to pitch. Yup, he levels under the strings. I am under the impression that this method can have advantages over PLEK and neck jig because it does not require frets to be cut with the strings off.
Each PLEK job is different. The operator must tell the machine how to cut on every PLEK job because every neck is different. I just need to study up more on the variables that are adjustable and measure one of my hand leveled ones to find out precisely what I'm doing so I can replicate it on the rest of the basses.
Once the desired characteristics are identified, I'm sure I can make this machine produce a fantastic result. The accuracy of the cut and the precision of measuring are superior to hand leveling. . . at least on large fretted instruments. I just need to take a more pro-active approach to the process. This time around, I was just watching and learning.
Snake oil? Hardly. Solid data is never a bad thing, and the PLEK is able to read a neck way better than I can by eye, but it still comes down to the operator figuring out how best to compensate for the problems in each neck AND the cut characteristics that will optimize the strings being used.
I have another 5 SX's to do and then, the first production batch of mine will probably be 20 instruments. There is no way I can carve out enough time in my life to hand level 20 within a reasonable time-frame.
I don't know, maybe it is just me, but all of this sounds like it is a bit much for low end affordable basses. I can see maybe going thru all of this for high end ($2k and up), but for a $150 bass? I started playing back in the early 70s and we never worried about any of this back then. Obviously we didn't even know about anything like this. We just plugged in and played the gig. I guess this is maybe just for those who are willing to spend the bucks and think they have a need for it. I would think there are many of us who think it is unnecessary. And this was a thread about "basses for newbies".
That's how it began, anyway. For the very dedicated (or, as our spouses call it, "obsessive"), things sometimes spiral from there and transmogrify into something else. This is about turning inexpensive basses into magnificent instruments that play and sound awesome. I don't wish to speak for Chunger, but as I see it, the costs spun out of control and it's a valuable lesson to learn. It's probably why, for example, entry-level MIM Fenders today cost around $500.00.
In any case, the fact that they may now be out of the reach of "newbies" doesn't make this thread any less interesting to me.
+1
It appears Chunger's goal of making basses that play and sound great is very much intact, but making them "newbie friendly" in regards to price may not be possible unless some things are changed.
Guess we'll see what happens when Chunger brand basses hit production.
Hello Chunger (et al.)
I had not visited this thread in a while but it's great to see that it is as informative and entertaining as always.
Two words: "Price discrimination"
Chungified Standard (TM) basses get the PLEK treatment.
Chungified Deluxe (TM) basses get the "by Chunger's hands" exclusive treatment and your strings of choice.
Only time will tell what the "Chungified Ultimate" service setup will bring.
Price accordingly and live well.
Best Regards,
Prieto
- Status
