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Double Bass bassing a cello

#22
You know, the story goes that Red Mitchell tried this same thing, concluded that string instruments sound better tuned in 5ths and spent the rest of his life playing his bass tuned in 5ths. I find that switching from 4ths to 5ths is not nearly as challenging as one might think, so why not give it a go in standard tuning? You might like it.;)
 
#23
thanks for all the suggestions...i'm going to try some cut down " not so special" (spare just-in case variety) bass strings first off, just to get some idea of what might be possible...i know there's a risk i could get diverted down the ol' cello/bello road but i've always been a sucker for a sidetrack !
i'll let you know how it goes
 
#25
blindeddie said:
i'm not certain about that part. i just think that's what he said in the interview. i'm not positive. but, i do know that he used standard bass tuning. and on a related note, i'm pretty sure that Percy Heath did the same thing. and Percy actually continued to use a cello up until his recent death. but i still think Ray was first.
Click to expand...

Actually, Oscar Pettiford was before Ray. They were good friends. Here's a podcast about his life, with some great performances on it on both bass and cello:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18490352
 
#26
when i went to collect the cello/bello from my friend he had already strung it up as we had talked about..used some fairly battle worn Spirocores (he thinks) cut down so's they fitted the pegbox....now as to the sound...G and D pretty good and clear and strong, A not so hot but reasonable, poor old E was there but more a rumble and lacking any real clarity.

worth persevering with though i think... felt like playing a toy bass at first but more intriguing as you get to know it.

my questions are....

- i didnt know what to expect as far as the pitch of the bello was concerned but i have to say that i was surprised that a nut to bridge string length of 698mm (27 1/2") would result in the same pitch range as a 3/4 DB. how is this so ? i always thought pitch was determined by the interrelation of string length and diameter and tension.

- is there any way that i could improve the low end response of the E string in particular

- how does this string/tuning set-up compare in terms of the stresses being imposed on the cello body with those that it was built to withstand ?

all thoughts and suggestions are welcomed

chris
 
#27
blindeddie said:
i'm not certain about that part. i just think that's what he said in the interview. i'm not positive. but, i do know that he used standard bass tuning. and on a related note, i'm pretty sure that Percy Heath did the same thing. and Percy actually continued to use a cello up until his recent death. but i still think Ray was first.
Click to expand...

For those who know German: I've written an article about jazz cello bassists some time ago: Invalid Link Removed
I consider Harry Babasin to be the first cello playing jazz bassist. He first recorded with the cello in 1947. Oscar Pettiford started in 1949.
 
#28
Virginia Dixon, a very fine bassist and teacher, has started bass students as young as four years old on cellos. I think she uses a combination of cello strings and electric bass strings. If I can get ahold of her I'll post back.

The cello A can easily be tuned down a full tone for the G.
The D is still a D.
Tune G up to A...more tricky.
Tune C up to E?

You'll be an octave higher but I think that's what Ray and Harry Babasin and George Cass did, using the cello like a guitar or lead instrument.
 
#29
I think Chris really wants to have the instrument tuned to bass tuning. What you (Chris) have done is going to be hard to improve upon without some real science and luthiery. Your string length is only 65% of what those strings were designed for, so the tension is proportionally lower. (pitch is a function of string mass, tension, and length) You might try a heavy gauge (stark) string on the bottom to increase tension. A more flexible string, like a Helicore orchestra (stark) might work better under the reduced tension (It works on my student's 1/4 size bass anyway). Another way to go would be to tune up by some interval, but the players might find this too confusing. A third option would be to reset the neck at a steeper angle and install a higher bridge. I doubt the bar will finance such a venture, so that's out. You do want to think about the overall tension on the instrument. I don't think what you're doing will be a problem. You probably have less tension that the cello was designed for, but with some research, you could figure out what is typical for a normally tuned cello, and what the result will be for your string choices. To do this, you would have to figure out the mass per unit length of the various strings. Short of all that, try to get a Helicore stark "E". That might solve all your problems.
Good luck!
Robobass
 
#34
Junkyard Slug said:
I built one once out of an Englehardt 4/4 cello. I replaced the tuning pegs with bass guitar 'mini' tuners and strung it with bass guitar flatwounds. Of course you had to recut the bridge and nut but it was a quick afternoon project.

JYS
Click to expand...

Rubner also makes small bass-like tuners for Cello.
 
#35
To tune a cello in 4ths, you could use guitar strings ( low 4 strings), but that would be an octave higher then double bass. Restringing with 1/16 bass strings would be possible, but a better solution probably would be an acoustic bass guitar. But such an instrument would not be very loud.
Such a small bass, guitar type or children bass or cello, in any case will not be a real bass in my eyes but a not too good solution. The air volume is missing needed for low notes and the short string length results in thick and heavy strings.
 
#37
1954bassman said:
Sheet music for cello is written in alto clef btw.
Click to expand...

Viola Music is written in Alto Clef. Cello Music is usually in Bass or Tenor clef. Sometimes treble clef as well but rarely if at all in Alto clef.

Half the music I get within the various Orchestras I play in are Cello-Bass parts noted in various languages. We get mostly Bass clef. The Cello is the bass instrument and what WE play is the Double Bass which sounds an octave lower as the DB is a transposing instrument! Tenor and treble clefs are used for upper register notes.
 
#39
I have the same problem in attending oldtime string band music jam sessions. I'm usually the rhythm guitar player of choice, but sometimes that area is covered and I'd like to use a bass instrument. With little Martin mandolins and oldtime banjos and fiddles played politely for more expression, using a conventional bass is too loud and too big in the low end. I've thought of getting an old church bass or, probably more appropriately, getting a light old 4/4 cello that is to loose and bassy sounding for a conventional cello voice. I'd tune it up a fourth from standard bass tuning with A-D-G-C. Remember that 3 string basses were often tuned A-D-G. Given the narrow nut width, I might just opt for the 3 string arrangement.

Unless you have extremely loud banjo or accordian players in the session, I believe that this could be a good solution to the problem. Also, Irish sessions and American oldtime fiddle jam sessions are usually laid out with everyone else sitting down. It would be easier to feel a part of the group sitting on a chair with the rest of the players, looking at your playing mates in the eye instead of staring down at the part in their hair.

Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.
 
#40
I'm wondering if anyone has had experience with acoustic bass guitars. I've played a few of them over the years and have two observations. One the body is too small to give a true bass sound but another observation is that the strings seem unsuited. Something like Spirocores seem like a better option, maybe they can be cut down?
 

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