BBE Sonic Maximizer; How Many Do You Need?

[Would'e?]

Here is a question about the BBE Sonic Maximizer and the BBE process: How many do you need to preserve the integrity of the process? That is, if the BBE process works by using phase correction to reduce envelope distortion by putting delay on lower frequencies to fix the natural tendency of loudspeakers to deliver lower frequencies to the ear quicker than higher frequencies, wouldn't you need a separate unit after every speaker in a chain?

For example, if I have a Sonic Stomp or a Maximizer in my amp's effects loop, the process will affect my amp. I will get a "corrected" signal coming from my speakers and out of my amp's DI. But if I mic the amp to the PA, unless the PA has it's own Sonic Maximizer, aren't I just defeating the purpose since the speakers in the PA will simply put their own envelope distortion back into the mix?

If this is correct would it make sense to have the unit in the PA's loop, only (assuming I only had one unit) rather than at the amp only? Would I get maximum BBE process by using units at both the amp and the PA?

Since guitarists tend to mic amps more often than bassists these days this question may have more relevance for them, but I am curious.

Background: I have an old (264) Sonic Maximizer and I love what the process does to my PA mix and home stereo, but if I get a unit for my amp, is it going to be made irrelevant if I ever need to mic a speaker through a non BBE'd PA?

 

[Anscari]

When stompboxing gets intellectual...

Surely, by pure logic, you'll lose some of the BBE effect by miking the amp, BUT, if you have an amp which brings an envelope distortion, let's say, of 3, and a PA that brings an E.D. of 2, without any BBE you'll get 5 credits for a free run on the E.D. rollercoaster, but if you put a BBE on your amp, then you only get 2 credits.

At least, it should be like that...

 

[EricF]

In theory, this makes some sense, but I'm not that smart in the area of sonic engineering. You might even run into a case where the 2 units are fighting each other and making things worse. The test for me would be using my ears. If I liked the result better with a SM in the PA, then I'd use it. If not, I wouldn't.

 

[bongomania]

You might even run into a case where the 2 units are fighting each other and making things worse. The test for me would be using my ears.

+1
Also, remember that the soundman is in control of the sound through the PA, not you. If the soundman wants any sort of processing on the house signal, he'll put it there. Unless you're in a tiny room or your rig is massive, your rig is only there for your onstage ears, the ears of people right near the stage, and maybe some miked tone through the PA if that's what the soundperson wants.

 

[Would'e?]

Of course that assumes I'm using the house PA for my gig and not my band's.

But it also raises the question, is the Sonic Maximizer not a ubiqiuitous piece of gear in most PA racks of any decent size? Don't most clubs use them anyway? And surely as widely recognized as a piece of valuable gear the SM is, it one of the dozens of units in the racks parked by the desks at major arena and amphitheatre show.

 

[bongomania]

It doesn't matter if you bring your own PA or if the house already has a maximizer or a hundred of them. It only matters whether you can tell the sound person what to do. In some venues you may have good luck with that, in some venues you won't.

 

[Crabby]

The BBE process in your bass rig will very simply boost the low end and boost the high end. It really is no more complicated then that. You will lose midrange definition no matter how subtle you set the BBE. If you are specifically looking for a scooped midrange sound with bossted lows and highs, you will like the overall result.

If your goal is to sit better in the mix and be heard without requiring ear splitting volume, then this is not what you want to do to your signal.

 

[Would'e?]

So I gather you had a bad experience?

And not at all a typical one from what I have heard others here describe with this gear. And it doesn't go to the meat of my question at all which is about whether or not using a using SM on a rig is a useless thing to do if one is simply going to run through a PA without a SM.

 

[brianrost]

But it also raises the question, is the Sonic Maximizer not a ubiqiuitous piece of gear in most PA racks of any decent size? Don't most clubs use them anyway? And surely as widely recognized as a piece of valuable gear the SM is, it one of the dozens of units in the racks parked by the desks at major arena and amphitheatre show.

The better the PA the less likely there'll be a BBE or Aphex in the rack. You don't need one if you have a good sounding PA in the first place.

As far as multiple processors in series, forget it unless you want to make your ears hurt. You can over-enhance and over-excite pretty easily.

 

[Would'e?]

It doesn't matter if you bring your own PA or if the house already has a maximizer or a hundred of them. It only matters whether you can tell the sound person what to do. In some venues you may have good luck with that, in some venues you won't.

Not to hijack my own thread, but if I bring the PA, then I bring the soundman. I have never been to a place that supplies a soundman to run a PA it doesn't have.

Any my question is a theoretical one, so responses that presuppose the existence of conditions (an uncooperative soundman) not presented in the original thought experiment are tiresome.

I just want to know if Rig + SM + Mic'd PA sans SM = Little to no BBE process in FOH.

Thanks Anscari for answering with a response that shows you get the gist of the question.

 

[Would'e?]

Ok I'll bite on this one Brian. How does a "good PA" compensate for the envelope distortion that comes with any loud speaker?

I'm not seeing how a little of the BBE process can't improve the sound coming from any cone somewhat.

Obviously before BBE came up with this stuff people weren't going around complaining that well engineered sound still sounded as if the speakers were stuffed with marshmallows. But now that we now that the envelope distortion can be corrected, why not do it? In other words, how can you keep them down on the farm now that they've seen Paris?

I never noticed envelope distortion myself before I got my first SM, which currently lives in my home stereo. But now that I have heard the speakers "with the pillows removed" I don't think I could ever go back.

Personally I've never been to rock show, club, theatre, arena, stadium or other where the sound couldn't have been a little more clearly rendered in the house speakers.

So you say that a good PA won't benefit from a bit of phase correction to enhance clarity. Please explain. Thanks.

 

[jondog]

I just want to know if Rig + SM + Mic'd PA sans SM = Little to no BBE process in FOH.

.

IMO, yes you will notice that a signal/amp has been BBEd when you mic it through a non-BBEd PA. So the answer to the equation is "some BBE on channel X in FOH" because the tone is still changed/processed/not dry no matter how you mic it. I wouldn't want to call what the audience hears "aligned" if there's no BBE in the PA rack, but I would call it BBEd.

A very easy test would be to do this w/ your amp and pa, just stand in front and have your buddy toggle the BBE bypass.

If it was me and I only had one BBE and I always played w/ my own PA, I'd put it in the PA rack where it can magically align all of what the audience hears instead of only somewhat effecting one channel.

 

[Passinwind]

Ok I'll bite on this one Brian. How does a "good PA" compensate for the envelope distortion that comes with any loud speaker?

I'm not Brian, but I'd much rather do FOH alignment with a DriveRack or other similarly tweakable tool. It's a rare "good PA" these days that doesn't have a speaker controller in place, at least IME. The BBE is much too one size fits all for my taste; YMMV.

 

[Crabby]

So I gather you had a bad experience?

And not at all a typical one from what I have heard others here describe with this gear. And it doesn't go to the meat of my question at all which is about whether or not using a using SM on a rig is a useless thing to do if one is simply going to run through a PA without a SM.

Was just trying to be helpfull and possibly save you a bunch of time by sharing my experience. Sonic Maximizers are very popular in PA rigs and DJ setups and yes, there are many TB'ers who rave about them.

But there are also many TB'ers who owned one for awhile specifically for their bass rigs and eventually realized how the BBE process had a negative effect of their ability to cut through a mix.

I've owned a number of BBE units over the years for different purposes and I can assure you that my experience is not unique.

 

[bongomania]

Any my question is a theoretical one, so responses that presuppose the existence of conditions (an uncooperative soundman) not presented in the original thought experiment are tiresome.

Thanks Anscari for answering with a response that shows you get the gist of the question.

Your attitude is tiresome. You did not state in your original post that you were just playing a what-if theorestical game; it sounded like you were asking for practical advice on the matter, which is what I (and the others who "didn't get it") was providing.

Enjoy your little mental vacation.

 

[poptart]

Right here goes - if you run your bass into a BBE stomp box and then into your amp/combo you will notice the BBE process when engaged. This will be more noticeable in a full range cab with separate bass driver and mid horn/tweeter as the phase correction will have greater effect.

If you then mic this up (which would be strange as most times you would di, which can be done after your effects) then you are correct that apart from a cleaner sound - not scooped unless you turn both the process and low control to full - your bass will not be phase corrected through the FOH.

If the PA has BBE in the rack (fairly common, but not ubiquitous) then the engineer will have set it up before sound checking the band in order to improve the phase alignment of the rig for the room (sometimes tweaked during performance to improve intelligibility, especially for vocals).

I suppose you could over BBE the sound, but in practice I have found that it works best if used subtly. BBE works well with the bass as it adds definition to plucked/popped notes and fills out the bottom end. I feel it is best used on the overall mix, however I have not used one for several years as alot of higher end PA have better phase correction, especially active speakers FWIW.

I am no expert, however I did work for BBE products for a couple of years and have has masses of hands on experience. I use mine for cleaning up recordings, especially live recordings as I really takes the mud out of the sound - so to speak. I this helps.

 

[Would'e?]

Ok Crabby. I'll take that in the spirit it was offered. Thanks.

Thanks to all for you responses. It really does sound like I'll have to give this here thought experiment a real world test, which as has been indicated, shouldn't be too hard.

Like everything else here of course it is sooooooo subjective. For every person who says "I love quad-color tri-rainbow sunbursts!" or "Spalted wildebeest wood from the high plains of Jabonjee rules!" or "Warwick necks just feel so comfortable!" or "BBE's really help me cut through the mix!", there is someone who really disagrees or had the opposite experience.

It really is all about YOUR ears and YOUR eyes.

 

[Would'e?]

Right here goes - if you run your bass into a BBE stomp box and then into your amp/combo you will notice the BBE process when engaged. This will be more noticeable in a full range cab with separate bass driver and mid horn/tweeter as the phase correction will have greater effect.

If you then mic this up (which would be strange as most times you would di, which can be done after your effects) then you are correct that apart from a cleaner sound - not scooped unless you turn both the process and low control to full - your bass will not be phase corrected through the FOH.

If the PA has BBE in the rack (fairly common, but not ubiquitous) then the engineer will have set it up before sound checking the band in order to improve the phase alignment of the rig for the room (sometimes tweaked during performance to improve intelligibility, especially for vocals).

I suppose you could over BBE the sound, but in practice I have found that it works best if used subtly. BBE works well with the bass as it adds definition to plucked/popped notes and fills out the bottom end. I feel it is best used on the overall mix, however I have not used one for several years as alot of higher end PA have better phase correction, especially active speakers FWIW.

I am no expert, however I did work for BBE products for a couple of years and have has masses of hands on experience. I use mine for cleaning up recordings, especially live recordings as I really takes the mud out of the sound - so to speak. I this helps.

This helps absolutely, poptart. Thanks ever so much for your thoughtful and considered response to exactly the question I asked based on the situation I described.

On another note: Wow this forum has some handy features!

 

[Would'e?]

Oops. Rereading your message poptart, I have one other quick question. You said you like the BBE for bass, but suggested the chain of Bass==>BBE==>Amp.

My amp is a digital modeling amp and all my effect are onboard in the pre. Since I know the BBE is supposed to be last in the chain, my only real option would be to run the BBE in the amp's pre-out/power-in loop. Should I still expect results if I'm using, say the Sonic Stomp?

 

[poptart]

Oops. Rereading your message poptart, I have one other quick question. You said you like the BBE for bass, but suggested the chain of Bass==>BBE==>Amp.

My amp is a digital modeling amp and all my effect are onboard in the pre. Since I know the BBE is supposed to be last in the chain, my only real option would be to run the BBE in the amp's pre-out/power-in loop. Should I still expect results if I'm using, say the Sonic Stomp?

My pleaseure

BBE suggest that you place the BBE last in the chain just before your amp or powered cab. This will give you the ideal use. However BBE now sell a stomp box which, whilst not ideal, does give you a "beefed up" sound.

If you are regularly playing through a PA, IMO BBE is best used on the FOH, as then the whole band/mix benifits from the extra clarity/punch (which I might add benefits the mids too, unless over processed causing the scooped sound).