BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

[Sundogue]

But, this was not a complaint about the lack of PA. That I'm fine with. It was an attempt to explain why some of us feel obligated to use big (however you define it) stage rigs.

I can understand the rationale, but that's also why I'm a bit confused. Drums can only get so loud (no matter who is hitting them or how hard). I've played with Neanderthals with clubs that break drum heads on a regular basis and yet it still ain't all that loud that even a decent sized combo couldn't keep up with or be even louder than.

And given that it does not take that big of a rig to be louder than the loudest of drums, I wonder at what point it's better to utilize a PA so the drums and bass can both be equally presented with guitars/keys/etc..

That is my biggest issue with this idea of a large bass rig. I can understand outdoor shows (even with a PA) where the low end gets lost into open air on stage and only a large rig will suffice as a personal stage monitor. But even then all instruments (including the entire drumkit) is going through the PA.

I don't understand why the need to blow away the drummer when the drummer has no control over his volume except to play quieter (as he cannot play louder than what is acoustically possible).

It's entirely possible that my idea of a good mix between the drums and bass are completely different from others, but I don't really think the bass should be drowning out a drummer any more than a guitarist should drown out the bass player.

What exactly is the big bass rig competing with again?

 

[father of fires]

I can understand the rationale, but that's also why I'm a bit confused. Drums can only get so loud (no matter who is hitting them or how hard). I've played with Neanderthals with clubs that break drum heads on a regular basis and yet it still ain't all that loud that even a decent sized combo couldn't keep up with or be even louder than.

And given that it does not take that big of a rig to be louder than the loudest of drums, I wonder at what point it's better to utilize a PA so the drums and bass can both be equally presented with guitars/keys/etc..

That is my biggest issue with this idea of a large bass rig. I can understand outdoor shows (even with a PA) where the low end gets lost into open air on stage and only a large rig will suffice as a personal stage monitor. But even then all instruments (including the entire drumkit) is going through the PA.

I don't understand why the need to blow away the drummer when the drummer has no control over his volume except to play quieter (as he cannot play louder than what is acoustically possible).

It's entirely possible that my idea of a good mix between the drums and bass are completely different from others, but I don't really think the bass should be drowning out a drummer any more than a guitarist should drown out the bass player.

What exactly is the big bass rig competing with again?

I'm not sure where you got this idea is that the attempt is to blow away the drummer. I feel like you are adding your personal concerns about big rigs to the issue.

The other point that you seem to miss is that a lot of low budget productions do not allow the time or space for a PA.

You can't come into a club and demand to be run through the house system. Or to bring your own. I've seen bands get the power turned off on them when they come in demanding the world. That is the extreme though.

The mindset of underground (I hate this term but I think it applies) bands is to not rock the boat and be thankful you've been given the opportunity to play.

 

[basskababble]

Sundogue, it's a genre thing too. OP was talking about punk, metal, hardcore. We might be overcompensating for something, but we're playing as loud as we can. If your buddies brother who learned to play drums because he loved that Minor Threat album you gave him, and wanted to join your band complains... you tell him to skip a month of herbal remedies and buy a combo and mic for his snare/kickdrum...

Basically turn it down isn't a phrase we use.

That's also because we're not all playing like The Minutemen. We have to deal with guitarists who don't leave room for any other instrument (like my guitar player who doesn't seem to mentally understand rests... he either rings out or scratches or palm mutes). They've gone and bought their Marshalls and scooped their EQ's.

So to cut through without a PA, and minimalize setup and tear down time (the latter of the two often has to be done to the tune of bearded blackshirts grumbling 'get your **** off stage') we overcompensate on the rig, and hope we can cut through the mix enough for the audience to hear us when our sound is coming from way back behind the drummer (so he can hear what part of the song we're in)...

edit: to directly answer the question, the big rig is competing with the ringing in the crowd's ears from the last band, the guitars, all the stuff on the shelves that hasn't been bolted down, and the hair on your shins.

 

[Zooberwerx]

It actually isn't related. I guess I'm getting lost in this thread as well. But, I define something as a chore when you HAVE to do it. If your day job pays the bills and you get to pocket some spending money by making drunk chicks dance then god bless you sir. But, I work my ass off so I can afford to play for no money.

It is a nice racket, that's for sure. Let me ask you this (in all seriousness): what would it take for you to work your ass off so you can afford to play for good money or is this goal unrealistic, undesirable, or unsustainable?

Riis

 

[father of fires]

It is a nice racket, that's for sure. Let me ask you this (in all seriousness): what would it take for you to work your ass off so you can afford to play for good money or this goal unrealistic, undesirable, or unsustainable?

Riis

I would have to quit my job. Abandon my wife and son. Stop paying my mortgage. Buy a van. Spend 10 years playing dives all over the country so, I can be an "overnight success." Write one kick-ass song that makes it on the radio and then the let the pressure of repeating that success spark a nasty coke habit. Quit. Go solo then become a hermit. 30 years later I license my bands back catalog for use in beer commercials.

 

[Sundogue]

Sundogue, it's a genre thing too. OP was talking about punk, metal, hardcore. We might be overcompensating for something, but we're playing as loud as we can. If your buddies brother who learned to play drums because he loved that Minor Threat album you gave him, and wanted to join your band complains... you tell him to skip a month of herbal remedies and buy a combo and mic for his snare/kickdrum...

Basically turn it down isn't a phrase we use.

That's also because we're not all playing like The Minutemen. We have to deal with guitarists who don't leave room for any other instrument (like my guitar player who doesn't seem to mentally understand rests... he either rings out or scratches or palm mutes). They've gone and bought their Marshalls and scooped their EQ's.

So to cut through without a PA, and minimalize setup and tear down time (the latter of the two often has to be done to the tune of bearded blackshirts grumbling 'get your **** off stage') we overcompensate on the rig, and hope we can cut through the mix enough for the audience to hear us when our sound is coming from way back behind the drummer (so he can hear what part of the song we're in)...

edit: to directly answer the question, the big rig is competing with the ringing in the crowd's ears from the last band, the guitars, all the stuff on the shelves that hasn't been bolted down, and the hair on your shins.

Well that bears further discussion. If the guitarists are too loud and leave no room and the bass needs a big rig to compete volume-wise...how is the drummer being amplified?

Because the loudest drums played by the hardest hitting drummer ain't going to match a big bass rig and loud guitarist without PA support (or does he bring his own amp and mics? ).

Which is why I asked why everyone wants to drown out the drummer. I'm not into that scene, so perhaps the drums are meant to be drowned out. If they're not, then you aren't really as loud as you say because acoustically drums cannot get that loud on their own. Which is why most bands without a PA (heck even with one) match the drummer's volume on stage as that is the basis for a well blended mix.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Yup. After a 5 year stint in an instrumental band, we were equally at home with or without the PA. It made no difference to our sound or volume, really

I did that for a long time - man, my ears are STILL ringing...

I *much* prefer real sound enforcment...

 

[Sundogue]

I would have to quit my job. Abandon my wife and son. Stop paying my mortgage. Buy a van. Spend 10 years playing dives all over the country so, I can be an "overnight success." Write one kick-ass song that makes it on the radio and then the let the pressure of repeating that success spark a nasty coke habit. Quit. Go solo then become a hermit. 30 years later I license my bands back catalog for use in beer commercials.

So obviously, you understand how the music biz works then.

 

[basskababble]

I would have to quit my job. Abandon my wife and son. Stop paying my mortgage. Buy a van. Spend 10 years playing dives all over the country so, I can be an "overnight success." Write one kick-ass song that makes it on the radio and then the let the pressure of repeating that success spark a nasty coke habit. Quit. Go solo then become a hermit. 30 years later I license my bands back catalog for use in beer commercials.

No way dude. All you have to do is invest in a good producer and find an 18 year old girl with a voice...

Link Removed

http://www.paramore.net/

...the drowning out is a biproduct... and punk metal drummers are always looking for tighter/louder snares, louder "china" and boomier kicks... they invest in loudness too. It's part of the event. "my ears are still ringing" is something you're supposed to hear your friends say after a good show. It's not smart, but are four chords and screaming about stuff that makes you mad smart? No.

 

[Beersurgeon]

father of fires,
I have a question that is off the topic just a bit. When your not using a PA for vox, what are y'all using to get the vox across?

My band is having similar problems with the PA thing and trying to figure out a way to sound good all round with out buying/using a PA (for now).

Sorry for getting off the subject and thanks!

 

[father of fires]

Well that bears further discussion. If the guitarists are too loud and leave no room and the bass needs a big rig to compete volume-wise...how is the drummer being amplified?

Because the loudest drums played by the hardest hitting drummer ain't going to match a big bass rig and loud guitarist without PA support (or does he bring his own amp and mics? ).

Which is why I asked why everyone wants to drown out the drummer. I'm not into that scene, so perhaps the drums are meant to be drowned out. If they're not, then you aren't really as loud as you say because acoustically drums cannot get that loud on their own. Which is why most bands without a PA (heck even with one) match the drummer's volume on stage as that is the basis for a well blended mix.

You're really harping on this drowned out drummer theory. Trust me. That is never an issue.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I would have to quit my job. Abandon my wife and son. Stop paying my mortgage. Buy a van. Spend 10 years playing dives all over the country so, I can be an "overnight success." Write one kick-ass song that makes it on the radio and then the let the pressure of repeating that success spark a nasty coke habit. Quit. Go solo then become a hermit. 30 years later I license my bands back catalog for use in beer commercials.

Is there any middle ground betweenst "no money" and the scenario / plan of action described above? FTR, I consider $80 / gig to be "good money"...enough to take my wife out to dinner Sunday. Come to think of it, I'm not sure if this is a profession or just a hobby that pays for itself.

Riis

 

[Beersurgeon]

Is there any middle ground betweenst "no money" and the scenario / plan of action described above? FTR, I consider $80 / gig to be "good money"...enough to take my wife out to dinner Sunday. Come to think of it, I'm not sure if this is a profession or just a hobby that pays for itself.

Riis

I got paid in beer and brats for my last gig... We did an encore because of good sourkraut and spice brown mustard!!!!

 

[silky smoove]

Drums can only get so loud (no matter who is hitting them or how hard).

Tell that to my drummer...

My rig (Tecamp Puma1000 into LDS nEarful 15/6/1) is by no means small, and in our rehearsal space, with no drums in the PA, I really have to get that rig cooking to keep up with him. I'm not maxing it out by any means, but it's definitely pumping.

The idea of bringing a "decent sized combo" for me is laughable at best. I might as well bring two cups on a string to use as my bass amplifier. I'd be just as audibly-invisible.

As a point of reference, we're not even playing a heavy genre.

 

[father of fires]

father of fires,
I have a question that is off the topic just a bit. When your not using a PA for vox, what are y'all using to get the vox across?

My band is having similar problems with the PA thing and trying to figure out a way to sound good all round with out buying/using a PA (for now).

Sorry for getting off the subject and thanks!

I guess I could have been more clear but, I was referring to no PA support for the whole band. Vox are rarely an issue unless the PA has died.

You could use a guitar amp for VOX but, this would have impedance mismatches which could lead to ruthless feedback.

It is unavoidable but you have to get something eventually.

Now on to sounding good. My favorite trick is to have the drummer play a song. Then play bass with the drummer and have your band stand back. Ask them to tell you whether to turn up on down. Repeat for all members. This only works at practice.

At a gig you have to trust your gear. This is kinda useless advice but, its true. It takes experience to know how your rig will react in a room. I'd say don't turn up as loud as you think you need to and don't stand next to your amp.

An old friend of mine's father was the sound guy for Kenny G. He spent 20 minutes with us setting up our practice spot and it did wonders for our sound. The only thing I remember him telling me (this was 10 years ago) is that bass does really well in the corner. So, I usually start there.

Good Luck!

 

[Sundogue]

You're really harping on this drowned out drummer theory. Trust me. That is never an issue.

I never, ever heard a drummer that could get as loud as my bass rig and I've never had the biggest rigs. And I've played with drummers that have had the loudest kits, practically having baseball bats for sticks and regularly tearing heads from pounding on them so hard. Rim shots and other techniques included and I still don't get how a drummer manages to keep up with what you describe as being loud enough to need a big bass rig.

I'm not harping on it...just trying to understand this seemingly impossible phenomenon.

My understanding is limited to...

1. Drums are acoustic instruments.
2. It doesn't take a big bass rig to overpower the volume of an unamplified drumkit no matter how it is played.
3. You say you need a large bass rig to "carry the room".
4. But you don't need a PA.
5. And you don't overpower the unamplified drummer, but you get insanely loud.

Is that about right?

Because my bass rig is typically just a 210/6 cab with a Carvin BX1200 on it (two of those cabs for outdoors or larger gigs). But my bass is also being fed through two JBL SRX728's driven by two 4000 watt power amps. I have yet to meet a bass rig louder than that (although I'm sure someone has one). THAT is loud. But of course the drums are being fed through that as well. Onstage, my amp is no louder than the drums are acoustically.

So I'm just trying to understand how a large bass rig is only matching the drums acoustically (as you say you don't overpower them), yet it is somehow all deafeningly loud.

Help me understand it.

 

[father of fires]

Is there any middle ground betweenst "no money" and the scenario / plan of action described above? FTR, I consider $80 / gig to be "good money"...enough to take my wife out to dinner Sunday. Come to think of it, I'm not sure if this is a profession or just a hobby that pays for itself.

Riis

Sure there is (a middle ground). But, I find that the easy money taxes my soul. Friends of mine scratch out a decent living but, they have had to make some sacrifices that I wouldn't want to.

 

[Implosion]

...it still ain't all that loud that even a decent sized combo couldn't keep up with or be even louder than.

Please define a decent sized combo.

 

[father of fires]

I never, ever heard a drummer that could get as loud as my bass rig and I've never had the biggest rigs. And I've played with drummers that have had the loudest kits, practically having baseball bats for sticks and regularly tearing heads from pounding on them so hard. Rim shots and other techniques included and I still don't get how a drummer manages to keep up with what you describe as being loud enough to need a big bass rig.

I'm not harping on it...just trying to understand this seemingly impossible phenomenon.

My understanding is limited to...

1. Drums are acoustic instruments.
2. It doesn't take a big bass rig to overpower the volume of an unamplified drumkit no matter how it is played.
3. You say you need a large bass rig to "carry the room".
4. But you don't need a PA.
5. And you don't overpower the unamplified drummer, but you get insanely loud.

Is that about right?

Because my bass rig is typically just a 210/6 cab with a Carvin BX1200 on it (two of those cabs for outdoors or larger gigs). But my bass is also being fed through two JBL SRX728's driven by two 4000 watt power amps. I have yet to meet a bass rig louder than that (although I'm sure someone has one). THAT is loud. But of course the drums are being fed through that as well. Onstage, my amp is no louder than the drums are acoustically.

So I'm just trying to understand how a large bass rig is only matching the drums acoustically (as you say you don't overpower them), yet it is somehow all deafeningly loud.

Help me understand it.

I want to say this without sounding like a jerk but, man you must have some magical rigs.

But, I think it comes down to you (specifically) having a sound that is properly eq'd (which can save on wattage) and a desired level that is lower than others.

Big rigs don't have to be turned up to 11all the time. They can be turned down but, some of us can't afford different amps for different sized gigs. So if you mostly play ****** clubs with loud ass puck bands and you can only afford one rig then, you may be woefully over powered for your reggae band

Think of it like this. Highway cops in my area drive super charged mustangs and chargers. Because, they never know when they will have to chase down a Corvette. Sure the police department could just hire more cops in regular cars and station them every two miles. But, the new cops and their cars would have a whole set of expenditures attached to them. Not to mention the logistics of a high speed pursuit would be a nightmare (think the Blues Brothers). So they figure one highly skilled officer with a super car can be more productive than several cops being forced to use mediocre cars.

 

[Beersurgeon]

father of fires,

Thanks for the tips! I'm the youngest of a band of old guys (I'm 35) and we are more the hobbiest type of musicans at this point. I doubt we will ever play anything bigger than a good size bar. I have had good luck so far, but with your expirences, do you thing my Acoustic B200 combo with a 210 cab will be enough or should I look bigger? Sorry if I'm off the topic still.

Thanks!