BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

[Jools4001]

Someone posted a couple of pages ago that they had never been on a gig where the bass was never taken through the PA, which of course is the rub. Just about every house sound system they sound guy wants to take the bass direct, pre-effect or eq and tweek the sound. They don't do that with guitars. Guitar amps get miked. We have to go direct. Why is that?

Why? So's they can make everything sound like a P-Bass of course!

 

[rhombass]

i think a lot of people aren't completely understanding the scope of the local punk or hardcore or metal scenes. it's not feasible to bring in our own PA. we get 30 to 40 minutes to play, that's including set up and break down. we're playing in teen centers and bowling alley back rooms, basements and garages. it's not that i wouldn't love full PA support, just that i know it can't happen. we learn to set up quickly so we can still play a 6 song set without stopping to talk between songs and still play the songs we wanted to play that night. basically bringing our own PA just wouldn't fly...

it's been mentioned that the drums won't be heard at the back of the room without being mic'd, i think we're talking about different venues. the places i play are quite small and there's not much of a "back" to the room, either in the room or out of it. also that the volume drops significantly once you've stepped off stage... stage? we play on the floor 90% of the time. i've also read the argument of if there's not PA support, the rest of the band should turn down to match the drum volume. we don't turn down to match it, we turn up to match it. drums are loud. if there is a PA, it's just for vocals nothing else. if it's a small, crappy, PA we'll sing/scream louder to be heard. i've played plenty of shows where i don't have a mic, so i'll scream at the ceiling and hope the sound will reflect back down, even if i can't be heard i can be seen.

do i do this to play for tiny crowds in tiny venues for little to no pay? no. i do this for the love of the music i play. i do this to show people the passion i put into playing and if i can get one new person to say "good show, i liked you guys" then i feel i've accomplished something.

i'm not trying to get some middle aged woman in a string tank top and her daughters jeans to dance. i'm trying to get people to move, to push eachother around and scream my words back into my face. i want people to feel the music and the passion i put into it.

different worlds indeed...

...end rant

 

[okcrum]

I'm not saying if you don't own the PA (or even a share of it) that you aren't taking responsibility for it. It may not be necessary to take responsibility.

But you aren't taking any responsibility if all you do is complain about a lack of PA and also expect someone else to buy it, maintain it and run it. That's just cheap and the equivalent of the guy who never buys any beers but keeps sponging them off someone else.

Buying a big personal rig so only the bass is heard out front (especially when the drums or other instruments aren't) is equally lame.

I've NEVER had a bad experience with band owned PA's. But I've always been a part of bands that were (are) professional and business-like in that regard.

I'm really amazed at how many bass players have such disdain for PA's. The drummer and I benefit the most from having one and the rhythm section sounds awesome at any venue no matter the size. Also relieves me of having to haul some monster bass rig around. But to each his own.

It's hard to have disdain for the PA if you have to sing through it. It's usually better to get it to sound as good as possible.

Problem is, if I play with the same band three weekends in a row around here, there might be three different lineups. There might be 3 different PAs too, and none of them supplied by the venue. They tend to be small and light, because people drive a long way to gigs out here. There's rarely such a thing as the concept of a "band PA". That's just how the scene is. So I deal with that. I don't complain about the PA. I do what I can to make the whole band sound as good as possible. That includes fitting the bass into the mix, not on top of it. I thought that was what the OP was trying to get at. I'm sure it's a lot easier and nicer in metro areas, but this is not one of those.

If you understand the loudness curve, then you understand why bass uses "big amps", even if by big you mean 250w and a 15".

 

[father of fires]

It's hard to have disdain for the PA if you have to sing through it. It's usually better to get it to sound as good as possible.

Problem is, if I play with the same band three weekends in a row around here, there might be three different lineups. There might be 3 different PAs too, and none of them supplied by the venue. They tend to be small and light, because people drive a long way to gigs out here. There's rarely such a thing as the concept of a "band PA". That's just how the scene is. So I deal with that. I don't complain about the PA. I do what I can to make the whole band sound as good as possible. That includes fitting the bass into the mix, not on top of it. I thought that was what the OP was trying to get at. I'm sure it's a lot easier and nicer in metro areas, but this is not one of those.

If you understand the loudness curve, then you understand why bass uses "big amps", even if by big you mean 250w and a 15".

I think this is a perfectly worded response.

 

[StuartV]

we're playing in teen centers and bowling alley back rooms, basements and garages.
...
it's been mentioned that the drums won't be heard at the back of the room without being mic'd, i think we're talking about different venues. the places i play are quite small and there's not much of a "back" to the room, either in the room or out of it.
...
the rest of the band should turn down to match the drum volume. we don't turn down to match it, we turn up to match it.

This thread is about the need for big rigs. In everything you just described, there is no need for a "big" bass rig. Even if you're playing insanely loud (in a room that size), 350 - 500W through a 410 cab should be MORE than enough. And I would call that a medium sized rig - not "big". And, really, a good 210 combo would probably be more than enough to totally overpower the drums.

 

[father of fires]

This thread is about the need for big rigs. In everything you just described, there is no need for a "big" bass rig. Even if you're playing insanely loud (in a room that size), 350 - 500W through a 410 cab should be MORE than enough. And I would call that a medium sized rig - not "big". And, really, a good 210 combo would probably be more than enough to totally overpower the drums.

I would love to play through one of your 210 combos. I just haven't had the same experience with any I've played. Don't get me wrong, I can be heard with any rig (my fingers are a natural mid-boost!!!) but, I also want to sound good. Which usually requires more firepower than a 210 combo.

I do agree that a 410 should be enough for most occasions. Unfortunately, I haven't been privy to any such occasions either.

 

[FromTheBassMent]

And I'll add to that...

How much extra cash and/or work does it really take to make that much of a difference in the quality of sound?

It takes so little extra effort to get a full, blended sound in any venue (large or small) that it makes no sense to me not having a PA handle the job it was intended for.

This depends on so many factors, not the least of which is how loud you really need to be. Most of the venues we play are fairly small, so with our pair of 450w JBL EON 15s, we're set for vocals and acoustic instruments, and also bleeding in a bit of electric guitar. But if we run bass into our PA, it muddies up everything else that the 15" speaker is handling. So getting the balance right is never something a sound guy can do by himself... I have to keep making adjustments at my amp until it's squared away.

The solution to the problem would be something like a powered 18" subwoofer... but that's $800-1000 that we simply don't have to spend on gear (for us, that is very expensive). So I need to get the volume from my stage amp that's adequate for the room.

Having said that, my Markbass combo rarely has the master volume up further than 2... and even at that we'll have other musicians at the back of the room come up and tell us that the bass is dominating. So for our needs, a 30lb bass amp actually works just fine.

I suppose if I were in a loud rock band playing huge clubs with PA support for vocals only, it would be an entirely different story.

 

[rhombass]

This thread is about the need for big rigs. In everything you just described, there is no need for a "big" bass rig. Even if you're playing insanely loud (in a room that size), 350 - 500W through a 410 cab should be MORE than enough. And I would call that a medium sized rig - not "big". And, really, a good 210 combo would probably be more than enough to totally overpower the drums.

awesome, 500w into a 410 is generally enough for me and that's what i use most of the time. if it's any bigger i bring a 115 too. i've used 210s before, didn't really do it for the spaces we play. i think in addition to styel differences, there are also different ideas of what's a "big rig." because i also end up playing with a bunch of new bands with young kids playing out of 50w 112 combos. compared to that, 500w into a 410 seems pretty big.

 

[flygirafda3]

My large bass rig is a 300 watt Randall RBA-500 into this weird kind of folded horn but not really matching 1x15, or a 2x18 if its somewhere we need more volume. We have never had a problem with the drummer not being loud enough.

And as far as the never getting out of the garage comment, I like playing in the garage. I like playing music to people that come to watch us play and stand on the same level as us and maybe a foot away if we're lucky. I'd rather do that any day than get paid to stand on a stage playing to a bunch of people who couldn't care less about us as long as we play free bird while they get drunk.

 

[Sundogue]

i think a lot of people aren't completely understanding the scope of the local punk or hardcore or metal scenes. it's not feasible to bring in our own PA. we get 30 to 40 minutes to play, that's including set up and break down. we're playing in teen centers and bowling alley back rooms, basements and garages. it's not that i wouldn't love full PA support, just that i know it can't happen. we learn to set up quickly so we can still play a 6 song set without stopping to talk between songs and still play the songs we wanted to play that night. basically bringing our own PA just wouldn't fly...

it's been mentioned that the drums won't be heard at the back of the room without being mic'd, i think we're talking about different venues. the places i play are quite small and there's not much of a "back" to the room, either in the room or out of it. also that the volume drops significantly once you've stepped off stage... stage? we play on the floor 90% of the time. i've also read the argument of if there's not PA support, the rest of the band should turn down to match the drum volume. we don't turn down to match it, we turn up to match it. drums are loud. if there is a PA, it's just for vocals nothing else. if it's a small, crappy, PA we'll sing/scream louder to be heard. i've played plenty of shows where i don't have a mic, so i'll scream at the ceiling and hope the sound will reflect back down, even if i can't be heard i can be seen.

do i do this to play for tiny crowds in tiny venues for little to no pay? no. i do this for the love of the music i play. i do this to show people the passion i put into playing and if i can get one new person to say "good show, i liked you guys" then i feel i've accomplished something.

i'm not trying to get some middle aged woman in a string tank top and her daughters jeans to dance. i'm trying to get people to move, to push eachother around and scream my words back into my face. i want people to feel the music and the passion i put into it.

different worlds indeed...

...end rant

Obviously if you're in a garage/basement band or play Madison Square living room for parties (no offense intended...been there myself), for no money and all you want to do is crank it up and jam AND/OR you are sharing a stage with five other bands all doing the same thing...there is no need for a PA, or at least your own. There's very little need for anything other than to be heard.

I play more than 6 songs at rehearsal. We play 45+ songs a night and we're the only band at the venue that evening. And I'm not trying to get some middle aged woman to dance either...just a side benefit that they (and their 21 year old daughters) do. I too play for the love of music and play it with passion. Just another side benefit that I get paid pretty damned good for doing something I love. And I certainly make no apologies for it either. Different worlds indeed. I guess I forgot where I came from.

I was speaking specifically to those who are the show, are booked at a venue, for money, to perform for a crowd that spends money, in an establishment that exists to make a profit. I was speaking to those who do this and complain about a lack of PA but doing nothing about it.

 

[father of fires]

Obviously if you're in a garage/basement band or play Madison Square living room for parties (no offense intended...been there myself), for no money and all you want to do is crank it up and jam AND/OR you are sharing a stage with five other bands all doing the same thing...there is no need for a PA, or at least your own. There's very little need for anything other than to be heard.

I guess I forgot where I came from. Apologies.

I was speaking specifically to those who are the show, are booked at a venue, for money, to perform for a crowd that spends money, in an establishment that exists to make a profit. I was speaking to those who do this and complain about a lack of PA but doing nothing about it.

Fair enough but, that is not what this thread is about. I think we're turning a corner though. We're beginning to understand each other. This is a good day.

 

[Zooberwerx]

And as far as the never getting out of the garage comment, I like playing in the garage. I like playing music to people that come to watch us play and stand on the same level as us and maybe a foot away if we're lucky. I'd rather do that any day than get paid to stand on a stage playing to a bunch of people who couldn't care less about us as long as we play free bird while they get drunk.

I can appreciate that. I wish people would come just to hear us play...nothing else...but evil market forces are at work. Our job is to:

1) Get people in the door
2) Get people to stay
3) Get people to dance
4) Get people to buy lotsa alcohol
5) Get guys laid

Riis

 

[father of fires]

I can appreciate that. I wish people would come just to hear us play...nothing else...but evil market forces are at work. Our job is to:

1) Get people in the door
2) Get people to stay
3) Get people to dance
4) Get people to buy lotsa alcohol
5) Get guys laid

Riis

I think when it becomes a job it becomes a chore.

My dad would work 13 hour days so he could go fishing on Sunday. My father-in-law works ridiculous overtime to play golf every week. This is how I approach my music. If any of us would have to do our favorite hobbies to make a living. I know the fun would be sucked out of it.

It's not for everyone but, it keeps me sane.

 

[Sundogue]

Fair enough but, that is not what this thread is about. I think we're turning a corner though. We're beginning to understand each other. This is a good day.

But you did start the thread out saying this...

We have to use big amps and cabs because none of the shows we play have PA support.

That's a bit different than saying the shows you play don't need PA support.

Your first statement reminded me of how many musicians I've met that complain but aren't willing to share in the cost of doing what it takes to play out professionally.

I understand where you are coming from far better now.

 

[basskababble]

In Miami we've got a venue called "The Talent Farm" that actually takes sound and stage very seriously. The sound's almost too good, and the stage is too high, but EVERYONE goes through the PA, which is extremely rare.

I've found that if there is a sound guy, asking the right questions MIGHT get you mic'd, like, can I D.I.? (If you carry your own mic cable)...

Unfortunately because of this esact issue I'm finding myself replacing my Ampeg V4B for something with more headroom. FAIL.

 

[Sundogue]

I think when it becomes a job it becomes a chore.

My dad would work 13 hour days so he could go fishing on Sunday. My father-in-law works ridiculous overtime to play golf every week. This is how I approach my music. If any of us would have to do our favorite hobbies to make a living. I know the fun would be sucked out of it.

It's not for everyone but, it keeps me sane.

It only becomes a job if you let it make you feel that way. Though I treat my band as a part time job, it hardly feels that way. Getting paid handsomely doesn't take any of the enjoyment out of it.

I'm also a professional artist and most of my work is on commission. I LOVE what I do, get paid well for it and it doesn't feel like a job at all.

Both of my hobbies turned into my career and I make my living from them and the more money I make at both the more fun I have with them. IMO doing them for nothing is what sucks all the fun out of it. Even though I'd still do both for free, I'd do them less if that were so. Just my take on it.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Not sure at what point a job becomes a "chore". Love the anecdote about your dad and FIL. As for me, I work 10-12 hrs / day so I can go play music on the weekends. Unfortunately, as soon as the first dollar hits your palm, it becomes a profession...albeit an unlicensed profession...and should be treated as such. Your "job" satisfaction will come with growth, maturity, achievement, recognition, and a modicum of humility. The "hey, we're just a garage band" mentality will only take you so far.

Riis

I think when it becomes a job it becomes a chore.

My dad would work 13 hour days so he could go fishing on Sunday. My father-in-law works ridiculous overtime to play golf every week. This is how I approach my music. If any of us would have to do our favorite hobbies to make a living. I know the fun would be sucked out of it.

It's not for everyone but, it keeps me sane.

 

[okcrum]

In Miami we've got a venue called "The Talent Farm" that actually takes sound and stage very seriously. The sound's almost too good, and the stage is too high, but EVERYONE goes through the PA, which is extremely rare.

Hey, that's not the place that has a blues jam every Wednesday, is it?

I've found that if there is a sound guy, asking the right questions MIGHT get you mic'd, like, can I D.I.? (If you carry your own mic cable)...

Unfortunately because of this exact issue I'm finding myself replacing my Ampeg V4B for something with more headroom. FAIL.

+1 to both points.

 

[father of fires]

Not sure at what point a job becomes a "chore". Love the anecdote about your dad and FIL. As for me, I work 10-12 hrs / day so I can go play music on the weekends. Unfortunately, as soon as the first dollar hits your palm, it becomes a profession...albeit an unlicensed profession...and should be treated as such. Your "job" satisfaction will come with growth, maturity, achievement, recognition, and a modicum of humility. The "hey, we're just a garage band" mentality will only take you so far.

Riis

It actually isn't related. I guess I'm getting lost in this thread as well. But, I define something as a chore when you HAVE to do it. If your day job pays the bills and you get to pocket some spending money by making drunk chicks dance then god bless you sir. But, I work my ass off so I can afford to play for no money.

 

[father of fires]

But you did start the thread out saying this...



That's a bit different than saying the shows you play don't need PA support.

Your first statement reminded me of how many musicians I've met that complain but aren't willing to share in the cost of doing what it takes to play out professionally.

I understand where you are coming from far better now.

But, this was not a complaint about the lack of PA. That I'm fine with. It was an attempt to explain why some of us feel obligated to use big (however you define it) stage rigs.