BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

[Sundogue]

Because the ability to have different sound levels on stage vs. in front of house is invaluable even in tiny venues.

It's totally feasible to, and I have done this before, have a thin nasally clacky bass sound on stage so it cuts through at low volumes, and send a bottom heavy sound through the subs.

Check with a good sound guy sometime; you'll see that the monitors are drastically different sounding than the front of house, and it's for the same reason you may want a different bass sound on stage (either volume or eq).

And I'll add to that...

How much extra cash and/or work does it really take to make that much of a difference in the quality of sound? I've heard quite a few bands that sounded together musically and their sound out front was crap (either by lack of PA, or one that couldn't handle the entire band). and it ruined what could have been an otherwise great night of music.

It takes so little extra effort to get a full, blended sound in any venue (large or small) that it makes no sense to me not having a PA handle the job it was intended for.

 

[father of fires]

no, I just think a lot of the guys here play in a different world. I would never, ever be in a cover band. I would rather play originals and never make it than get paid something to play, even if that means ****** clubs and no PAs. There are, however, a lot of people who disagree.

Fair enough. I think if some of the pros saw the squaller I find myself playing in they would blow a fuse.

But, I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Sundogue]

no, I just think a lot of the guys here play in a different world. I would never, ever be in a cover band. I would rather play originals and never make it than get paid something to play, even if that means ****** clubs and no PAs. There are, however, a lot of people who disagree.

I played in an all originals band for over 12 years. And we put together our own PA. And quite easily I might add.

Playing originals does not equate to being without a PA. Not putting in the effort to make it happen does though. Of course if it's not a priority, then it just isn't going to happen.

You get out what you put in. Every situation one finds themselves in is of their own doing. Change it or live with it.

 

[blendermassacre]

Fair enough. I think if some of the pros saw the squaller I find myself playing in they would blow a fuse.

But, I wouldn't have it any other way.

when it comes down to it, I'm looking for the one person to come up to me while I'm having a smoke outside, and says 'great show'. I have no disillusions of grandeur. If I can play some bars in KC, even if they're ****** bars in front of ****** people, I can be happy.

 

[muddycreek]

Both bands supply the PA as the clubs usually don't about here. We don't use bottoms as it is not worth the trouble just for putting the bass through. Why carry two bottoms, an extra power amp, crossover, cables, and all the rest when my just bringing in the right rig does the work.

Now granted - if the place was huge it would be different. But for 200 people clubs this works just great - and - I get to control my own tone!

I've always thought about bringing a little mic pre/mixer/something so I could toss my own mic in the kick and bleed some of it into the bass amp. Done right, I think it could be fantastic and leave the rest of the band OK with a couple good quality 1-12 tops.

 

[poorbassist15]

The reason why I use a rig is because I like having thump behind me. Another one is I don't like the way my bass sounds in the P.A. . I'll do it when I have to, but I find it's so much easier to get "my sound" with amps than a P.A. .

 

[father of fires]

I played in an all originals band for over 12 years. And we put together our own PA. And quite easily I might add.

Playing originals does not equate to being without a PA. Not putting in the effort to make it happen does though. Of course if it's not a priority, then it just isn't going to happen.

You get out what you put in. Every situation one finds themselves in is of their own doing. Change it or live with it.

This has been mentioned a few times. My problem with this is (and as someone pointed out earlier) that many venues would not want you to bring your own PA. I guess if you set up the show you can have your own PA but, with 5 bands on a bill getting 30 min each to play. It just isn't feasible. Every band I play in has a PA but, even at practice (and if we were to bring it to shows) it would only be for vocals.

I think the assumption that you can't have a good live sound without a PA is bogus. It all comes down to experience with playing live. This takes time to perfect. Plus, when me and the drummer lock on, the band follows suit. Also, bass is omnidirectional and since I use a decent size rig everyone hears me just fine.

You have to learn to play in less than ideal conditions. At this point in the game, I can play in the dark when all I can here is cymbals and the audience still hears a good live band. Its rock and roll at it's finest.

 

[D.M.N.]

How about, because you can't tell from on stage what the sound is like to the audience? By running everything through the PA, you can have somebody out in front making the mix sound good TO THE AUDIENCE. Plus, if your rig is at the back of the stage, pumping out enough volume for the whole audience, how are the rest of the band supposed to hear their monitors (without cranking them to ridiculously loud levels)?

How about, we do have a sound man in the Audience? Yeah, weird, I know, but we do in fact adjust the sound so it sounds good in the audience, even without the bass and guitar going through the PA, because Amps have volume knobs too. P.A.s aren't the only way to adjust levels. As far as monitors, the rest of the band doesn't use them either. We have one for each vocal (the lead singer and me), so all we have is the vocals through those, and we keep it at a sane enough volume to where we can hear the monitors. But thanks for talking down to me.

Different worlds man. Different worlds.

Precisely

The reason this isn't mentioned is that it's not a valid reason. If there is no PA support and you are even remotely interested in the entire band sounding good, you match your volume to the drummer. Even for extremely hard hitters with loud kits it doesn't take a big amp and cab to match the volume level.

You've obviously never met my drummer. He's loud WITHOUT PA support, with even a little of PA, you have to be loud to keep up with him.

Here's to the PA-less barroom warrior!

 

[muddycreek]

This has been mentioned a few times. My problem with this is (and as someone pointed out earlier) that many venues would not want you to bring your own PA. I guess if you set up the show you can have your own PA but, with 5 bands on a bill getting 30 min each to play. It just isn't feasible. Every band I play in has a PA but, even at practice (and if we were to bring it to shows) it would only be for vocals.

I think the assumption that you can't have a good live sound without a PA is bogus. It all comes down to experience with playing live. This takes time to perfect. Plus, when me and the drummer lock on, the band follows suit. Also, bass is omnidirectional and since I use a decent size rig everyone hears me just fine.

You have to learn to play in less than ideal conditions. At this point in the game, I can play in the dark when all I can here is cymbals and the audience still hears a good live band. Its rock and roll at it's finest.

I guess some of the regional differences come into play- most of the clubs around here want to book one band, three sets, and that's what my original band around here did for several years. We had a PA, because most of the rooms we played didn't- although they were decent sized, none were really dedicated music venues. It ended up being cheaper in the long run, and we sounded better with our own rig.

On the other hand, there are/were a few of the cattle call venues around as well, four or five bands in one night, but that wasn't the norm. Those were fun, though, too- we'd call everyone and pretend we were doing them a favor by using at least somebody else's bass rig and drums, and even sometimes guitar amps. I was blessed with a guitarist that basically sounded like himself through anything. Three minute load in and load out, anyone?

 

[Sundogue]

This has been mentioned a few times. My problem with this is (and as someone pointed out earlier) that many venues would not want you to bring your own PA. I guess if you set up the show you can have your own PA but, with 5 bands on a bill getting 30 min each to play. It just isn't feasible. Every band I play in has a PA but, even at practice (and if we were to bring it to shows) it would only be for vocals.

I think the assumption that you can't have a good live sound without a PA is bogus. It all comes down to experience with playing live. This takes time to perfect. Plus, when me and the drummer lock on, the band follows suit. Also, bass is omnidirectional and since I use a decent size rig everyone hears me just fine.

You have to learn to play in less than ideal conditions. At this point in the game, I can play in the dark when all I can here is cymbals and the audience still hears a good live band. Its rock and roll at it's finest.

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you. There are times when certain types of gigs or achieving a certain level of success leaves one dealing with less than ideal circumstances regarding the PA. And it still is a matter of a situation you yourself place yourself in. I will not play in a band without a PA. I will play certain multi-band gigs knowing full well my band is not in control of the sound. But I'm also not whining about it either as I'm playing it by choice.

But in my 30+ years, while the majority of musicians I've played with have had a level of professionalism where it is understood that we embark on this trade knowing there are necessary tools of the trade (not just our own personal tools, but shared ones...i.e. - PA, monitors, lights, misc, etc.)...and if not supplied it is dealt with in a professional manner.

However, I've run into countless musicians in my time who...

1. Want to play in a band.
2. Feel the PA is always someone else's responsibility.
3. Choose to whine about the lack (or the low quality) of a PA because of No. 2.

Players (all of us musicians, not just bass players) need to man up and do what it takes. Either get a damn PA, doing whatever it takes to make that happen...or, deal with the lack of one in the most professional way possible by working together to keep the levels even on stage if that's where the venue's sound (or majority of it) is generated from.

I find not having a PA a royal pain and will not play in a band without one. It isn't that difficult to put one together. Multiple bands/contractual obligations, etc. aside.

 

[will33]

Hint: The hot chicks in spaghetti strings aren't into your "bass tone".

 

[Sundogue]

I guess some of the regional differences come into play- most of the clubs around here want to book one band, three sets, and that's what my original band around here did for several years. We had a PA, because most of the rooms we played didn't- although they were decent sized, none were really dedicated music venues. It ended up being cheaper in the long run, and we sounded better with our own rig.

On the other hand, there are/were a few of the cattle call venues around as well, four or five bands in one night, but that wasn't the norm. Those were fun, though, too- we'd call everyone and pretend we were doing them a favor by using at least somebody else's bass rig and drums, and even sometimes guitar amps. I was blessed with a guitarist that basically sounded like himself through anything. Three minute load in and load out, anyone?

Most of the "cattle call" venues around here are for bands I would never set foot on stage with. Most of them doing it with the mentality that it's for "exposure". Um...yeah, exposing a lack of professionalism I wouldn't be caught dead participating in.

I'm not on any mission to make it big. I've long since given that up. I play because I enjoy it (both original and cover bands). By choice I just won't be a part of any band or gig that removes that enjoyment. So basically most all of my gigs are of the ideal variety.

 

[Sundogue]

Hint: The hot chicks in spaghetti strings aren't into your "bass tone".

You're right. The hot chick in spaghetti strings is at home, in bed, waiting for me.

 

[GeneralElectric]

I posted that other thread 2 months ago. I still disagree about being loud but thats just me. I own my own PA system. Its not very large. I think its a Yamaha power amp and mixer and two JBL 2x12s with horns. We mic the vocals and the kick drum, thats it.

I still play a 55 watt tube amp in most of my gigs but I'm looking for something more modern sounding for one of my gigs. People come to hear a band and not have their ear drums bludgeoned to death in my opinion and experience. Besides the vocals should be the strong point of a good band, not a wailing guitarist or rumbling bass player.

 

[D.M.N.]

What 55w tuber are you using?


And as a note, my band does have a PA, so I'm not complaining about not having access to a PA, rather just commiserating with the OP about dive bars that lack the PA

 

[GeneralElectric]

What 55w tuber are you using?


And as a note, my band does have a PA, so I'm not complaining about not having access to a PA, rather just commiserating with the OP about dive bars that lack the PA

I have an Ampeg B25B. I mount it on an SVT115EN cabinet for smaller shows. Larger indoor shows there usually is FOH PA support. Outdoor shows I play my Mesa RR215 or Ampeg 810 with my SVT.

Everyone in my band for the most part drives a truck, so its never an issue. Takes us 15 minutes to set up our PA and a little less than that to set up our amps and drums. I walk out into the audience with my wireless so we can do sound check.

 

[Sundogue]

I posted that other thread 2 months ago. I still disagree about being loud but thats just me. I own my own PA system. Its not very large. I think its a Yamaha power amp and mixer and two JBL 2x12s with horns. We mic the vocals and the kick drum, thats it.

I still play a 55 watt tube amp in most of my gigs but I'm looking for something more modern sounding for one of my gigs. People come to hear a band and not have their ear drums bludgeoned to death in my opinion and experience. Besides the vocals should be the strong point of a good band, not a wailing guitarist or rumbling bass player.

Being loud has nothing to do with having a PA (as you've pointed out). It's about blending the mix of the band together.

I disagree that vocals are what draw people to a live band. It's been my experience that most people want to dance or just get into the groove. Although I have to admit, being in a 5 piece band where we all sing lead and backup, vocals do set us apart.

Nobody dances to vocals or guitar. They dance to the rhythm section. Even at our quietest gigs, the full drum kit and bass (as well as everything else) goes into the PA...even if it's turned down significantly. Let the PA do the work and keep the volume down more on stage. It's all about achieving a perfect mix and if one can do that with a minimal amount of PA, then that's very cool...and certainly a lot less work.

 

[father of fires]

Being loud has nothing to do with having a PA (as you've pointed out). It's about blending the mix of the band together.

I disagree that vocals are what draw people to a live band. It's been my experience that most people want to dance or just get into the groove. Although I have to admit, being in a 5 piece band where we all sing lead and backup, vocals do set us apart.

Nobody dances to vocals or guitar. They dance to the rhythm section. Even at our quietest gigs, the full drum kit and bass (as well as everything else) goes into the PA...even if it's turned down significantly. Let the PA do the work and keep the volume down more on stage. It's all about achieving a perfect mix and if one can do that with a minimal amount of PA, then that's very cool...and certainly a lot less work.

Wait people dance at your shows? What's that like?

 

[will33]

It's totally feasible to, and I have done this before, have a thin nasally clacky bass sound on stage so it cuts through at low volumes, and send a bottom heavy sound through the subs.

What a lot of people (bass players) don't understand is that this is oftentimes what it takes to sound good to your audience when playing a gig where your rig is what they are hearing....no PA. If you want it to sound nice to you, it's not going to sound good out there and vise versa. It's a "taking one for the team" thing.

 

[father of fires]

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you. There are times when certain types of gigs or achieving a certain level of success leaves one dealing with less than ideal circumstances regarding the PA. And it still is a matter of a situation you yourself place yourself in. I will not play in a band without a PA. I will play certain multi-band gigs knowing full well my band is not in control of the sound. But I'm also not whining about it either as I'm playing it by choice.

But in my 30+ years, while the majority of musicians I've played with have had a level of professionalism where it is understood that we embark on this trade knowing there are necessary tools of the trade (not just our own personal tools, but shared ones...i.e. - PA, monitors, lights, misc, etc.)...and if not supplied it is dealt with in a professional manner.

However, I've run into countless musicians in my time who...

1. Want to play in a band.
2. Feel the PA is always someone else's responsibility.
3. Choose to whine about the lack (or the low quality) of a PA because of No. 2.

Players (all of us musicians, not just bass players) need to man up and do what it takes. Either get a damn PA, doing whatever it takes to make that happen...or, deal with the lack of one in the most professional way possible by working together to keep the levels even on stage if that's where the venue's sound (or majority of it) is generated from.

I find not having a PA a royal pain and will not play in a band without one. It isn't that difficult to put one together. Multiple bands/contractual obligations, etc. aside.

I think we have gotten of track. I'm may complain about my crappy PA experiences but, I know full well what to expect with the shows I play. I merely started this threads in hopes of explaining to some folks why some of us need big amps. It seems to come up quite often on TB. I was just offering my perspective. I hadn't figured on such a lively debate.

Good night. There is a crying baby in my arms. He seems to think I should be paying attention to him or something.