• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

It's kind of like classifying rap as music instead of performance art or spoken word.
It may not be your music, but technically speaking rap as a vocal style is definitely music. The backing tracks may not always be worth a damn and the lyrics may not rise any farther up the culture ladder than AC/DC's do, but the fact that it's rhythmic rather than noted doesn't detract from the fact that you can write it out on a staff and have someone reproduce those rhythms without having heard it. Spoken word is an entirely different thing which doesn't have any musical intent whatsoever.

And although electronic drums have only recently gotten to the point where they are a workable performance instrument, the high end stuff does respond and sound quite nice when tweaked and played properly.

Hope that doesn't piss you off. ;)
 
It may not be your music, but technically speaking rap as a vocal style is definitely music. The backing tracks may not always be worth a damn and the lyrics may not rise any farther up the culture ladder than AC/DC's do, but the fact that it's rhythmic rather than noted doesn't detract from the fact that you can write it out on a staff and have someone reproduce those rhythms without having heard it. Spoken word is an entirely different thing which doesn't have any musical intent whatsoever.

And although electronic drums have only recently gotten to the point where they are a workable performance instrument, the high end stuff does respond and sound quite nice when tweaked and played properly.

Hope that doesn't piss you off. ;)


Ya, I know I would catch some crap for that comment....that's why I said it but come on man, you can't honestly compare JayZ to motown.

Now to derail the derail and get it back on track, who has some beneficial advise as far as playing without a "proper" PA? This applies to you rap guys as well. Imagine playing your stuff without a set of proper subs as I imagine a lot of you do for the same reason a lot of us play without out our proper sound re-enforcement. I can't imagine a rap show coming off that great without out big lowend but I have seen it done and done well. It depends on the talent.
 
Yeah I have had to play shows without PA support before. Thats why I had an 8x10 for a while.

The worst is when the band before you blows out the mains and there are no vox or EXTREMELY distorted vox.


That's a whole 'nother deal. When the rest of us are talking about no "PA" we mean (I think anyways) that there is a PA that amplifies vocals, just not the rest of the band. But that is another thing you may run into one night and have to work around.
 
I saw 3 bands this past weekend in a bar with a MONSTER EAW PA but Bass still wasn't in the mix. It was loud, it was full, bass was DI'd but anything over 100 hz was inaudible unless I stood in front of the bass cabs on stage.

If I ever play there I guess the soundman and I will be going rounds but he will witnesses the full power of my battle station. :)
 
I figure I should share a bit about the local scene... here, most venues provide everything, even drums. I hear in other countries, drummers have to lug their whole kit to wherever they're playing; here most drummers just show up with sticks, while more professional/picky drummers bring their snare, cymbals and maybe pedals. PA is always provided, house amps often provided (whether or not it's actually good is a different story though!). Nobody brings their own amps. I have never ever seen any musician carrying an amp on a subway, I have never seen any musician carry an amp to a gig, whether by foot or by car or by public transport, unless it's some major big-time ticketed gig in a large concert hall, in which case usually they arrange for equipment to be provided. Whenever public gigs/events/etc. are organized, usually the organizers will provide all equipment. Probably less than 10% of the musicians locally own any form of PA, and those who do probably keep it at home for personal use.

I've had a lot of musicians tell me that local musicians are really spoiled, they can just go down to the venue and expect everything to be set up already while overseas this is not the case. I've never played overseas before, so I wouldn't know.

Another case that highlights this well is the abundance of cheap rehearsal studios around here. You can easily get pretty usable equipment in a soundproofed room for something like US$8-15 an hour. My favourite studio which my band often uses is around US$12 an hour for a roughly 10mx6m room with full PA support, a pair of Marshall half stacks, a 1000w Hartke Hydrive, two keyboards on a double deck, very well maintained drumset with double kick pedals and about 8 or 9 turkish cymbals. A friend who moved overseas told me she booked a studio for an afternoon and she and her friends went over... only to find that overseas, studios really meant just studios, without any equipment supplied.

Also a big "no" on drummers who use triggers on their real drums because it turns them into "electronic drums". If metal guitar player want to tune down 3 steps and can still play the instrument...fine. If drummer wants to tune down to have deep/reverberating drums....fine, if they're the real instrument just being played a different way. If they want to have some electronic weird reproduction of what it's supposed to sound like take the place of what it's supposed to sound like, sorry, that's it.

OTOH, have you seen Akira Jimbo? That guy sure knows how to make good use of triggers!

And although electronic drums have only recently gotten to the point where they are a workable performance instrument, the high end stuff does respond and sound quite nice when tweaked and played properly.

I check out the latest stuff whenever they hit the local stores... and it's still not satisfying. The closest is still muffing up an acoustic drum to remove the sound but maintain the feel, then triggering it. Even so, you still can't really get the nuances of different strokes. It's like having to play bass without being able to change the tone by changing where you pluck or how you fret. And they still haven't gotten the feel of cymbals right. They're playable, but still can't compare the acoustic thing, while for guitars, playing an acoustic *feels* like playing an electric, just that the sound is different.
 
Ya, I know there are a lot of guys who can make great use of triggers, etc. I want to hear sombody play their natural instrument and all the different nuances/things that it does. IMO, a drummer who can take the "feel" of a drum can do so much more than some guy with triggers, computers, effects units, space/time continuums, etc.
 
I figure I should share a bit about the local scene... here, most venues provide everything, even drums. I hear in other countries, drummers have to lug their whole kit to wherever they're playing; here most drummers just show up with sticks, while more professional/picky drummers bring their snare, cymbals and maybe pedals. PA is always provided, house amps often provided (whether or not it's actually good is a different story though!). Nobody brings their own amps.

Same here.

Though the amps and drum kits are usually pretty bad.

:D

Matt.
 
I saw 3 bands this past weekend in a bar with a MONSTER EAW PA but Bass still wasn't in the mix. It was loud, it was full, bass was DI'd but anything over 100 hz was inaudible unless I stood in front of the bass cabs on stage.

If I ever play there I guess the soundman and I will be going rounds but he will witnesses the full power of my battle station. :)


That's the problem with crappy soundguy's. They think bass means subs only like the dufus rolling down the street with the vibrating trunk. They don't realize bass is an instrument, not a frequency. You and your band would be better off if you cranked the snot out of your rig and made this idiot mix around you.
 
I think it is based on the style. I have played in original punk, metal, and rock bands my whole life and PA support is a luxury. Keep in mind, most people playing this style do it for the love of music with no hope for financial gain. The fan base is broke. The clubs are broke. And the bands are even broker. It's all for fun so no one is gonna pitch in for a nice PA.

This post is pretty dead on. I play in a metal band, I'd say that I know the local scene pretty well and it's usually exactly like that. However, most (not all) of the "dedicated" venues I've played here always have PA support for the whole band, even the most run-down ones. Then again, I've played basement shows and "non-venue venues" that have almost no PA support and having a rig of decent proportions is a must if you don't want to be buried in the mix. My philosophy is that if you can get by volume-wise at practices, you can get by at a gigs.
 
I've experienced some horrible PA systems, there was one night at a club where the band that played the night before us blew the PA and so we didn't find out until the day of the gig.

Some bands would still sound good with no PA, If I had a choice of seeing The Ramones at a well equiped club or at some random house party etc I'd pick the later
 
So......while some usually find themselves without FOH for bass and dig big rigs others almost always have PA support and don't. That anyone associates either of these situations with any moral imperative is ridiculous, and actually arguing about it is so.......TB:p
 
Y...who has some beneficial advise as far as playing without a "proper" PA?

Skip the big stage rig. Buy THE BIG rig...a PA, and run it yourself.

All this talk of having to have a monster rig to carry the bass, leaves out carrying the drums as well. OK. So now the bass can be heard but the drums suck. Where is the logic in that?

My advise? Stop pouring money down a black hole. Buying a huge stage rig when you have no PA is like buying expensive rims and tires for a vehicle that has no engine.
 
+1 for the original post and just about every post here.

I prefer NOT to have my bass thru the PA, because local sound guys never can get the sound right for the room and have no clue how to handle it outdoors. Forget about cutting through the mix, just once I'd love to have it actually sound like a bass guitar instead of indistinct thunder-rumble. I got my wireless system so I could get out front and hear it and have the sound guy adjust all the mix. (I front my original band and had these issues even when I was on a label touring.) By the way, the ONE thing I learned from Bruce Springsteen himself in a conversation about 10 years ago is this. Get a wireless and listen to the mix yourself.

If you look on his boxed set album "Live 1975-1995" There is actually a picture of him during sound check out in the stands listening to the mix. So, even if you only use it for sound checks, (assuming they give you one) get the wireless and listen to the mix yourself.

Otherwise, don't let them take you direct at all. Just bring your 500-1000 watts with you, set up your 8X10 or 4X10 and 1X15 and just crank it. Let the sound guy balance the other guitars and vox. ;)
 
I'm confused as to why this is even an issue. Every problem has a solution.

Problem - The venue has no PA?
Solution - Bring your own.

Problem - The venue has a crappy PA?
Solution - Bring your own.

Problem - The venue has a crappy PA but won't allow you to bring your own?
Solution - Stop playing at places like this.

Problem - You have a PA but no sound man?
Solution - Get a wireless, run it yourself, or hire your own guy.

Problem - Don't want to invest in a PA?
Solution - Who does? Find another hobby or profession.

Really. Would a bass player try to play without a bass or an amp? Get the tools of the trade and use them. If you can't or won't, then stop your whining. Would you open up shop as a mechanic without the proper tools? Or would it be someone else's responsibility to buy the tools for you?

I see a serious lack of professional courtesy among a lot of musicians. It seems the PA is not the bass players responsibility. Whose responsibility is it then? Stop passing the buck, suck it up and take care of problems by dealing with them. If you are a "gun for hire" then take only the jobs you find acceptable. If you are in a band then as a group take care of things like adults. If you sign on with someone, make some demands of your own. If you acquiesce, accept the consequences.

What I see from the OP and others is the idea that if there is no PA then the bass player should obtain the biggest rig possible for himself. I guess that solves his problem.
 
Problem - The venue has a crappy PA?
Solution - Bring your own.
Problem - The venue has a crappy PA but won't allow you to bring your own?
Solution - Stop playing at places like this.
Problem - You have a PA but no sound man?
Solution - Get a wireless, run it yourself, or hire your own guy.
Problem - Don't want to invest in a PA?
Solution - Who does? Find another hobby or profession.
.

What you are failing to take into account are all the places that WANT you to use their little vocal system in order to keep the overall level down...or the venue where there is literally NO ROOM to bring anything into.

As for myself, I'd rather work than not work. And I want my bass to work in a room no matter what the circumstances.

My band in the '80s had a massive 5-way system that sounded terrific indoors and out. We paid a sound guy and had a truck.

Today's economics don't support that model. You need to flexible and adaptable. In my situation chaining yourself to a PA reduces that ability.

I think making sweeping statements and thinking your way of doing things is the ONLY way is ridiculous. There are too many variables out there. To my way of thinking, being able to deal with them is what separates the men from the boys. :eyebrow:
 
What you are failing to take into account are all the places that WANT you to use their little vocal system in order to keep the overall level down...or the venue where there is literally NO ROOM to bring anything into.

As for myself, I'd rather work than not work. And I want my bass to work in a room no matter what the circumstances.

My band in the '80s had a massive 5-way system that sounded terrific indoors and out. We paid a sound guy and had a truck.

Today's economics don't support that model. You need to flexible and adaptable. In my situation chaining yourself to a PA reduces that ability.

I think making sweeping statements and thinking your way of doing things is the ONLY way is ridiculous. There are too many variables out there. To my way of thinking, being able to deal with them is what separates the men from the boys. :eyebrow:

Everyone's situation is different to be sure.

But if you are playing a room so small it doesn't fit a PA, or in a club that requires a lower volume, then it also doesn't need a big bass rig.

If you need your rig to carry the room and in order to do so the rig needs to be big, then the drummer needs amplification as well. Thus the PA. I don't see the problem here.
 

Latest posts