BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

[Sundogue]

The devil's in the details, isn't it?

We have to use big amps and cabs because none of the shows we play have PA support.

The OP said "we" (meaning those who have big rigs) needed them because of a lack of PA.

There is no logic in that. Drums can only get so loud no matter how hard one hits them (spare me the "You haven't heard my drummer" blather). If one needs a big bass rig to carry the room then so does the drummer. Thus the need for a PA. If there is no need for a PA then the volume requirement for bass goes down as well.

To insist that only the bass player needs to be heard is selfish and a detriment to the band overall.

My point was that if one is going to complain about not having a PA...then buy a PA, not just something that amplifies only you. If a PA isn't needed then don't use one. Duh.

 

[okcrum]

The OP said "we" (meaning those who have big rigs) needed them because of a lack of PA.

There is no logic in that. Drums can only get so loud no matter how hard one hits them (spare me the "You haven't heard my drummer" blather). If one needs a big bass rig to carry the room then so does the drummer. Thus the need for a PA. If there is no need for a PA then the volume requirement for bass goes down as well.

To insist that only the bass player needs to be heard is selfish and a detriment to the band overall.

My point was that if one is going to complain about not having a PA...then buy a PA, not just something that amplifies only you. If a PA isn't needed then don't use one. Duh.

Sounds like you've never had to deal with a band-owned PA when the band breaks up. That alone argues against huge band-owned PAs.

Small venues out here don't even have house PAs, and easily moveable PAs are usually able to handle the kick drum only, besides vocals and guitar. Most don't have subs, so there's little point in farting out the PA mains with the bass. Remember there's a little thing called the equal loudness curve, and it has major implications in sound reinforcement. Most often, the singer owns the PA themselves. Unless I were fronting a band, I'd have little use for the expense and hassle of hauling a PA, mics, etc.

It's very common here for bass players to be self-contained as far as sound goes. Your mileage, whatever it is, clearly varies, but your opinion and experience are not applicable universally.

 

[FunkMetalBass]

Over 50% of the time, only vocals are put through a PA. 10% of the time, the sound guy tells me my rig is loud enough/sounds better and puts everything but me through FOH. The rest of the time, we sound good.

 

[Sundogue]

Sounds like you've never had to deal with a band-owned PA when the band breaks up. That alone argues against huge band-owned PAs.

Small venues out here don't even have house PAs, and easily moveable PAs are usually able to handle the kick drum only, besides vocals and guitar. Most don't have subs, so there's little point in farting out the PA mains with the bass. Remember there's a little thing called the equal loudness curve, and it has major implications in sound reinforcement. Most often, the singer owns the PA themselves. Unless I were fronting a band, I'd have little use for the expense and hassle of hauling a PA, mics, etc.

It's very common here for bass players to be self-contained as far as sound goes. Your mileage, whatever it is, clearly varies, but your opinion and experience are not applicable universally.

I've dealt with band owned PA's and break-ups many, many times. However, there is a right and wrong way to deal with things. Things need to be spelled out contractually in a business-like manner. GET things down in writing. It makes everything so clear after the fact.

"Most often, the singer owns the PA themselves."

That statement says a lot. And backs up my claim that most bass players choose to take no responsibility for the band sound...only their own.

I certainly don't call taking responsibility for the sound of the band a worthless expense or hassle.

I want to make this very clear...I have no problem with anyone not using a PA. Do or don't, doesn't matter to me. But if you don't, then don't bitch about not having one or having no control over the band's sound.

That's my whole point here. I read people bitching about no PA but doing nothing about it except bringing their own rig. Very weird.

 

[giacomini]

I can say a thing or two from the other side also. I worked as the sound tech for a mid sized venue and there were bands SO LOUD onstage (including house monitors. they ask more, I give more...) that sometimes the boss would come around to ask to decrease volume and I did so, many times PA going down to ZERO and the band was still too loud from their amps and monitors only. I'd show the boss the PA faders all the way down and he'd ask me the band to keep it down, but yes, they never did... But thanks, they never came back either.

 

[StuartV]

As far as bringing your own, better PA. Try telling a club owner that you need more money to setup, dial in, tear down your own stuff

Who said anything about that? We don't charge extra to bring PA. We charge what we charge. And we bring PA. And we sound better than most bands that play the same venues.

The fact that we take longer to load in and out, will, I think pay off as we build up our reputation and start getting gigs at places that are willing to pay more.

As it is, we're a 3-piece and we get paid the same as 4 and 5 piece bands that play around here - in part, because we SOUND better than those other bands. We've gotten numerous comments from patrons and bar owners along the lines of "I can't believe you guys are only a 3-piece. You sound like a much bigger band." I attribute some measure of that to the fact that they can actually hear every voice (just 2) and each instrument (including ALL the drums).

 

[StuartV]

The reason this isn't mentioned is that it's not a valid reason. If there is no PA support and you are even remotely interested in the entire band sounding good, you match your volume to the drummer. Even for extremely hard hitters with loud kits it doesn't take a big amp and cab to match the volume level.

That pretty much says it all.

 

[StuartV]

no, I just think a lot of the guys here play in a different world. I would never, ever be in a cover band.

I don't see what difference this makes to this discussion. Whether I'm playing originals or covers, I still want the band to sound good to the audience. In order for that to happen, the audience needs to be able to hear ALL the instruments (and voices). That means there's no need for a bigger rig than what will match the drums (all the drums - not just the kick). If there's no PA, then you won't need a big bass rig to match the drums. If the PA is big enough (regardless of who owns it) for handle all the drums (and make the bass drum sound decent), then it should also work fine for the bass guitar - so again, no need for a huge bass rig.

Or maybe you just don't care if the audience can hear all the drums - as long as they can hear your bass....

 

[StuartV]

when it comes down to it, I'm looking for the one person to come up to me while I'm having a smoke outside, and says 'great show'.

Have a little respect for yourself, man! At least aspire to have one person THAT COULD ACTUALLY HEAR YOUR WHOLE BAND, come up to you and say 'great show.'

 

[Zooberwerx]

Who said anything about that? We don't charge extra to bring PA. We charge what we charge. And we bring PA. And we sound better than most bands that play the same venues.

The fact that we take longer to load in and out, will, I think pay off as we build up our reputation and start getting gigs at places that are willing to pay more.

As it is, we're a 3-piece and we get paid the same as 4 and 5 piece bands that play around here - in part, because we SOUND better than those other bands. We've gotten numerous comments from patrons and bar owners along the lines of "I can't believe you guys are only a 3-piece. You sound like a much bigger band." I attribute some measure of that to the fact that they can actually hear every voice (just 2) and each instrument (including ALL the drums).

Have to agree with all of the above

*We charge a price which includes the head, the tail...the whole damn fish.

*Load in / load out...choreography at its finest.

*All I want to see is a bare stage and lots of outlets.

*4 hour gigs (4 sets)....we don't do pay-to-play or 5 band / 30 minute sets.

*I own the PA, Tim owns the trailer. We're pretty much tenured.

*1/2 my band $$ goes for bass gear, the other 1/2 goes for PA embellishments / upgrades.

*Most importantly: I learn something new every day.

Riis

 

[billfitzmaurice]

The OP said "we" (meaning those who have big rigs) needed them because of a lack of PA.

There is no logic in that. Drums can only get so loud no matter how hard one hits them (spare me the "You haven't heard my drummer" blather). If one needs a big bass rig to carry the room then so does the drummer. Thus the need for a PA. If there is no need for a PA then the volume requirement for bass goes down as well.

Quite right. If anything drums and guitar need PA far more than bass does, and it has nothing to do with volume.
As for having adequate volume to carry the room bass almost never needs PA; room acoustics being what they are the one thing you don't need to be concerned about throughout the room is the low end. What PA is required is for the mids and highs, as they never sound the same in the audience as they do on stage. PA support isn't about volume, it's about dispersion and clarity. More often than not there's no need for anything below 100Hz in the PA from the bass, and for that matter most knowledgeable soundmen will high-pass the bass feed.

 

[StuartV]

How about, we do have a sound man in the Audience? Yeah, weird, I know, but we do in fact adjust the sound so it sounds good in the audience, even without the bass and guitar going through the PA, because Amps have volume knobs too. P.A.s aren't the only way to adjust levels. As far as monitors, the rest of the band doesn't use them either. We have one for each vocal (the lead singer and me), so all we have is the vocals through those, and we keep it at a sane enough volume to where we can hear the monitors. But thanks for talking down to me.

The OP was about having BIG rigs. You said "if I can do the show without PA support, why NOT??" I was responding to the idea that you could do a show that needs a big rig in order for you to provide bass without using PA.

Obviously, you can do quieter shows/smaller venues with the biggest rig in the world - and get the band to sound good in the FOH. But then you don't need a big rig (which is what the original post was about).

If you're playing something that needs a big rig (in order to not need to run bass through the PA), then tell me again how the vocalists are supposed to hear their monitors (and the rest of the band hear the vocals also) with your big rig right behind them, and cranked up to fill even a medium-sized venue?

You said yourself that you "keep it at sane" volume levels. That right there tells me that you do not NEED a big rig (there I go getting back to the original post again).

 

[nysbob]

More often than not there's no need for anything below 100Hz in the PA from the bass, and for that matter most knowledgeable soundmen will high-pass the bass feed.

If they don't know to do it, I usually ASK them to do it. If you're dealing with a strange FOH guy, you can tell a lot by how he dials in the pre-show music.

 

[StuartV]

There is more to a drum set than the kick drum.

I was just about to type that EXACT sentence! If you're in a band and don't care whether the audience can hear the drummer's toms, then you must either have a crappy drummer, or well, our opinions on what constitutes "good" when it comes to music are very different.

When I am listening to a band, I want to hear ALL the notes from all the players - in a good mix, of course. When I'm playing, I want all my notes and all my bandmates' notes to be heard, too.

 

[thudfromafar]

Quite right. If anything drums and guitar need PA far more than bass does, and it has nothing to do with volume.
As for having adequate volume to carry the room bass almost never needs PA; room acoustics being what they are the one thing you don't need to be concerned about throughout the room is the low end. What PA is required is for the mids and highs, as they never sound the same in the audience as they do on stage. PA support isn't about volume, it's about dispersion and clarity. More often than not there's no need for anything below 100Hz in the PA from the bass, and for that matter most knowledgeable soundmen will high-pass the bass feed.

That's good to know, thanks

A question though, how should kick drum be run in the PA?

 

[StuartV]

The economics just doesn't add up. A young musician has to buy an expensive bass and rig.

If you're approaching this is a business into which you invest your time and money, the young musician would spend no more than $350 for a new Squier or something used that is better, $200 for a Sansamp BDDI, the rest on PA that could handle his bass sound (and, by extension, the rest of the band).

All that would cost the same or less than what some people seem to think a bassist "needs" to spend on just their bass and rig.

 

[thudfromafar]

In theory you may be right, stuart, but if you have ever played with originals/rock/punk/metal groups with shared sets, it's really not practical as you think. Plus, that's for a working musician. Not everyone wants a $350 instrument or no bass rig, just because it's more efficient. Some people like to play basses that are more expensive, and having a practice rig and more control/ownership/transportability over their bass sound.

 

[mtshark]

This thread just made me want to start/join a hardcore punk or metal band and play for my 4H club... they wont know what hit them.

 

[father of fires]

Just read through the thread and there are some incredibly facepalm-worthy posts in here.

I could not agree more. Unless It was me.

My original point is lost on some people.

 

[thudfromafar]

I could not agree more. Unless It was me.

My original point is lost on some people.

some people just haven't been there