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BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

#41
It is interesting to note that the cost of all the big amps and cabs could get a bar/basement/underground band a fairly decent (not great, but serviceable) PA with 4-5, 2-way 10" mains/monitors, a 15" sub (which works fine for bass as long as you send all the lows to the sub, then do the main/monitor mixes--bass is omnidirectional, so no matter where you put the sub in the room it sounds the same), cables and stands. Then these bands would sound relatively decent and loud rather than just loud.

Of course, you'd have to really like and trust the people you're playing with and/or have the shares written out ahead of time and signed by all members, then notarized, and get the vocalist to realize that his/her mic, stand, and portion of the PA expense are like the guitarist buying his/her guitars, strings, pedals, cables, and portion of the PA.

And while we're dreaming, can we get the drummers to join us in the new millennium and play electric instruments, too? Some of the e-drums are very nice now and nobody in the audience can tell except the other musicians. If you have a full PA with monitors and subs, they will get all of the volume and IME, IMO better tone. Then everyone could go through the PA and there would be almost no need for amps on stage, except for little 10 watt 6" practice amps for the guitarists, so they can get feedback when they want it.

Oh well, back to reality.... :D
 
#42
Just to add the point Father of Fires is making, not only do many clubs have poor underpowered PA's, but there is no time for you to bring one. Most of these clubs will book 4 to 5 bands on per night. Once one band is done, it's 15-20 minutes of breakdown and setup time for the next band to start their set. There is no luxury of bringing your PA.

Around Seattle we are lucky most of the clubs in the original music scene have good PA's and usually good people to run them. But there are nights when a subbing soundman is there not doing a good job and I have no problems telling him/her to yank me out of the mix.
 
#43
father of fires said:
Asking us how we are supposed to hear our monitors is like asking us why we complain about doing our laundry when we could simply have our butler do it for us.

Different worlds man. Different worlds.
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It sounds like you go into every gig expecting it to be like the one doctorpunch described. And, being serious, how do you ever expect your band to sound good like that? If I was in that kind of band situation, I would make the whole band re-think our approach to sound. Or quit the band. I would not continue to play in a band where I knew that every gig (or even just a lot of gigs) was going to be that kind of stuation (where nobody can hear what they or anybody else is doing). It just sounds depressing.
 
#45
StuartV said:
It sounds like you go into every gig expecting it to be like the one doctorpunch described. And, being serious, how do you ever expect your band to sound good like that? If I was in that kind of band situation, I would make the whole band re-think our approach to sound. Or quit the band. I would not continue to play in a band where I knew that every gig (or even just a lot of gigs) was going to be that kind of stuation (where nobody can hear what they or anybody else is doing). It just sounds depressing.
Click to expand...

It's all I know. It's how I grew up gigging. Someone else mentioned it earlier, you have to know your gear. I know how to set up my rig to sound best for the audience. I gave up having a good stage sound years ago.
 
#46
StuartV said:
It sounds like you go into every gig expecting it to be like the one doctorpunch described. And, being serious, how do you ever expect your band to sound good like that? If I was in that kind of band situation, I would make the whole band re-think our approach to sound. Or quit the band. I would not continue to play in a band where I knew that every gig (or even just a lot of gigs) was going to be that kind of stuation (where nobody can hear what they or anybody else is doing). It just sounds depressing.
Click to expand...

Imo this is what bands just starting out have to deal with. Until you can book places that are nicer, playing in front of 20 people with little to no PA support for little to no money is the reality of the music industry.
 
#47
Can we say a word here about the downside of running bass through the PA w/ subs.

Heard Mike Gordon's band last summer in Burlington, playing outside, nice big PA. His bass is going through the PA, big subs.

So.. half of the range of his instrument is huge and boomy, but if he plays above the cutoff point, the bass sound gets tinny and disappears. (and this is HIS band...).

Of course he had a decent rig, but not loud, so this is possibly OT ... but PA systems should not be crossed over to sound like this....
 
#48
father of fires said:
We have to use big amps and cabs because none of the shows we play have PA support ... every time I see a "why are there big amps?" thread, I wait patiently for someone to mention this and they never do.
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The reason this isn't mentioned is that it's not a valid reason. If there is no PA support and you are even remotely interested in the entire band sounding good, you match your volume to the drummer. Even for extremely hard hitters with loud kits it doesn't take a big amp and cab to match the volume level.

Of course those threads are silly to begin with. In these days of small rigs which put out a lot of sound energy there are still big amps and cabs because people will buy them. It's the same reason there are people in the city who buy large 4x4 pickups or Hummers. As long as someone is willing to spend 100% more to get a 5% gain in capability, even if they will never need it, music companies will continue to thrive by selling the stuff.

This isn't to say that owning a big rig is ridiculous, and there are legit differences in feel and tone which make it worth lugging that stuff around for some people (including me). But I have lost track of the number of bands I've seen in the exact scenario listed in the OP who may as well have left their drummer home because they can't get over their amp stunting.
 
#49
I'll 2nd a couple things mentioned here. If you're whole drumkit (and thus, your whole band) isn't miked, everybody should match their volume to the kit. That means what it sounds like to the audience, not to yourself. Also a +1 on bass rigs being able to outmuscle mediocre PA's. Even if they are run vocals only, a decent bass rig can bury your vocals if the PA is underpowered or the speakers were placed by someone who knew nothing about placement or both. Now if that's a problem, imagine what your guitar player who's cranking up 100watts and 4 speakers to get his tone is doing to the center portion of your audience. It's gigs like this where things like speaker placement and listening to yourself from 20-30ft. away really pay off.....or not.:)


As far as bringing your own, better PA. Try telling a club owner that you need more money to setup, dial in, tear down your own stuff because it will sound so much better after they've been convinced that the money they dropped on their POS bought them stellar sound that anybody who's any good will sound great playing through. Some don't have the money to spare, some wouldn't spend it if they did. Even offering to come in on a off day to do simple things with their existing system that would result in much better performance are usually met with a "nah, sounds good, just turn it down.".
 
#50
blendermassacre said:
Imo this is what bands just starting out have to deal with. Until you can book places that are nicer, playing in front of 20 people with little to no PA support for little to no money is the reality of the music industry.
Click to expand...

It is still a two way street though............

Because bands are just starting out, they are also *usually* undisciplined, and tend to belong to the "louder is better" school of thought.

Whether it is a gig, or in their practice space, there is only one volume - balls out. It's a game of who can drown out who with their volumes.

The bands that rise above the "entry level" gigs and get to play better venues with real sound systems do so because they know how to properly adjust stage volume to the gig, and know how to use dynamics when playing. Of course, actual talent and songwriting ability go a long way too. However, even if you write the best material and are all virutoso's on your respective instruments - you will never move up to the next level without discipline.
 
#51
I think the fallacy here is that better bands get better clubs. I guess what you call a better band is all relative but, I find that better bands DO sound better in ****** clubs because they know how to adjust levels. Some styles of music just don't make enough money for decent club owners to bother booking. This goes back to doing it for the love of music.
 
#53
Bass_Pounder said:
It is still a two way street though............

Because bands are just starting out, they are also *usually* undisciplined, and tend to belong to the "louder is better" school of thought.

Whether it is a gig, or in their practice space, there is only one volume - balls out. It's a game of who can drown out who with their volumes.

The bands that rise above the "entry level" gigs and get to play better venues with real sound systems do so because they know how to properly adjust stage volume to the gig, and know how to use dynamics when playing. Of course, actual talent and songwriting ability go a long way too. However, even if you write the best material and are all virutoso's on your respective instruments - you will never move up to the next level without discipline.
Click to expand...

agreed.
 
#54
honestjohnny said:
It is interesting to note that the cost of all the big amps and cabs could get a bar/basement/underground band a fairly decent (not great, but serviceable) PA with 4-5, 2-way 10" mains/monitors, a 15" sub (which works fine for bass as long as you send all the lows to the sub, then do the main/monitor mixes--bass is omnidirectional, so no matter where you put the sub in the room it sounds the same), cables and stands. Then these bands would sound relatively decent and loud rather than just loud.

Of course, you'd have to really like and trust the people you're playing with and/or have the shares written out ahead of time and signed by all members, then notarized, and get the vocalist to realize that his/her mic, stand, and portion of the PA expense are like the guitarist buying his/her guitars, strings, pedals, cables, and portion of the PA.

And while we're dreaming, can we get the drummers to join us in the new millennium and play electric instruments, too? Some of the e-drums are very nice now and nobody in the audience can tell except the other musicians. If you have a full PA with monitors and subs, they will get all of the volume and IME, IMO better tone. Then everyone could go through the PA and there would be almost no need for amps on stage, except for little 10 watt 6" practice amps for the guitarists, so they can get feedback when they want it.

Oh well, back to reality.... :D
Click to expand...
ewww! if that's a dream world, let me never wake up from my nightmare!

hey, different bands have different needs. ain't my thing to blast real loud out of amps but i've done it before when needed. let's not judge other people's experiences and standards by our own, eh?
 
#55
Thus the reason I have always played through a PA. For over thirty years, I never, not once had to play without one.

Why? Because I (or the band I was in at the time) put together our own. Really, a PA is not that expensive. It doesn't need to be extravagant, but I am really surprised at the notion of playing without one. First band I was ever in...we bought a PA. That's what a "job" is for...to have money. How on earth can a band not scrape enough cash to buy a small, medium or even larger PA. Take out a loan, rent, whatever. If any band has it's act together it need not be an outdoor concert PA. Simply learn to work with the system you have. Even the most marginal PA is better than none for blending the band's sound as one decent mix.

A mixer, a decent 1/3 band EQ, couple of power amps and a crossover with even marginal subs and mains...how much does that come to if this is what you do with your life, even part time? And in this day when so much comes integrated. And how much power does one need in a bass rig to overpower even the loudest drummer? Drummers can only play so loud and even at maximum acoustic volume it doesn't take that much to match it with a bass amp. And even if you have a loud guitarist, what does the vocalist do? I thought the whole point of a band was working together to play music.

I can understand "for hire" solo bass players who play with whomever pays and being stuck without a PA. But what is the reason really for not owning even a decent PA?

Or is it always someone else's responsibility to provide one? Is it because of other priorities? The nice car, the big boat or (insert any other pasttime/hobby that eats into a PA fund that is of higher priority, here)?

I must be lucky. I can't imagine playing without a PA, unless I were to ever find myself playing with a bunch of cheapskates or the unemployed. Even then, I'll buy the damned PA myself.

:rollno:
 
#56
If you've got no PA, you only have to get as loud as the drums. You don't need an 8x10 to get as loud as the drums.

If the PA can run the drums, it can run the bass.

Never understood this line of reasoning.
 
#57
I'm taking this to mean "playing without a PA" means that the entire band is not run through a PA. Obviously there's still a PA which amounts to a vocal amp, maybe punish it with a little kick drum just to get a beat tap out there. Basses/guitars and whatever else use their amps. ie: your amp is what the audience hears.
 
#58
ZiggyDude said:
Both bands supply the PA as the clubs usually don't about here. We don't use bottoms as it is not worth the trouble just for putting the bass through. Why carry two bottoms, an extra power amp, crossover, cables, and all the rest when my just bringing in the right rig does the work.
Click to expand...

Because the ability to have different sound levels on stage vs. in front of house is invaluable even in tiny venues.

It's totally feasible to, and I have done this before, have a thin nasally clacky bass sound on stage so it cuts through at low volumes, and send a bottom heavy sound through the subs.

Check with a good sound guy sometime; you'll see that the monitors are drastically different sounding than the front of house, and it's for the same reason you may want a different bass sound on stage (either volume or eq).
 

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