Yeah, it sucks when the drummer can't hear the bass: kind of hard to get a groove locked down when that happens.
I want the lead guitar to hear me too.
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BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!
- Thread starter father of fires
- Start date
Yeah, it sucks when the drummer can't hear the bass: kind of hard to get a groove locked down when that happens.
I want the lead guitar to hear me too.
Why is that gross? I did say that the PA I suggested wasn't the best, but serviceable. Anyway, all I was saying was that the money bands spend on "big amps" could be spent on a PA that would work better for everyone involved with the caveat that there has to be a great deal of forethought involved in the process of acquiring the PA.
I feel very strongly that vocalists should be responsible for their part of the sound re-enforcement gear. I can't play bass without a bass, strings, cables, preamp/DI, poweramp and speaker. And if we're playing rock, then they can't be heard without a mic, cables, mixer, poweramp and speakers. It galls me to no end when they complain about not being able to hear themselves and be heard over the instruments, but don't learn about and spend the cash for the PA, that they need. Having said that, if the vocalist wants to buy a mic, cable, stand, and something like a keyboard amp or mini PA for just their vocals, fine.
Similarly, if guitar players are going through the PA then their amp is an effects device. 10 tube watts and a 6" speaker in a bass reflex cab, judiciously EQ'd will produce authentic tube distortion and feedback when approached for that purpose. A microphone will send all the volume the house needs to the PA. I have done this and it works fine and sounds just as good as any Marshall 100 watt full stack.
The eDrums thing was just me being silly and hyperbolic. I do realize the limitations of even current technology, but as many of us say to each other here on TB, audiences can't tell the difference. So at the club level, if it meant that my band would sound good and get more gigs, then I would go with an eDrum kit and not think twice. Plus, I could practice at home with headphones and not wake the baby, wife, or neighbors. Not saying it's for everyone, but we all make compromises when we play at sub-pro levels (and even they do sometimes) so why shouldn't the percussionist?
@ will33 about the keyboard bass--- Touche
Yeah, it sucks when the drummer can't hear the bass: kind of hard to get a groove locked down when that happens.
I want the lead guitar to hear me too.
Try this if you have the cabs, works quite well for me...
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
That means that you have tops that are larger than what you need. There are very good reasons for dedicated subs, having to do mainly with placement. If you have subs covering up to 80-100Hz then tops that go below 80-100Hz are unnecessary cartage. If a $15k Vertec only goes to 80 Hz why do you need a top that goes to 50?
Yes big cabs and big amps are almost a must with my band/scene. we play basement shows 90% of the time with just a small PA for the vocals.
I think iv only played a show with a full house PA just once this year. and not too many times in the past.
Even the larger venue that bands play at in the area just has a small PA, bands are loud enough in my experience.
I think iv only played a show with a full house PA just once this year. and not too many times in the past.
Even the larger venue that bands play at in the area just has a small PA, bands are loud enough in my experience.
I'm not saying if you don't own the PA (or even a share of it) that you aren't taking responsibility for it. It may not be necessary to take responsibility.
But you aren't taking any responsibility if all you do is complain about a lack of PA and also expect someone else to buy it, maintain it and run it. That's just cheap and the equivalent of the guy who never buys any beers but keeps sponging them off someone else.
Buying a big personal rig so only the bass is heard out front (especially when the drums or other instruments aren't) is equally lame.
I've NEVER had a bad experience with band owned PA's. But I've always been a part of bands that were (are) professional and business-like in that regard.
I'm really amazed at how many bass players have such disdain for PA's. The drummer and I benefit the most from having one and the rhythm section sounds awesome at any venue no matter the size. Also relieves me of having to haul some monster bass rig around. But to each his own.
That means that you have tops that are larger than what you need. There are very good reasons for dedicated subs, having to do mainly with placement. If you have subs covering up to 80-100Hz then tops that go below 80-100Hz are unnecessary cartage. If a $15k Vertec only goes to 80 Hz why do you need a top that goes to 50?
They were inexpensive and available....15" driver, midrange driver, and HF horn. I admit its overkill but occasionally appropriate when spatial constraints prohibit subwoofers. In normal conditions, the mains are placed L & R with subs center-clustered. I'm a little wary of manufacturer published specs. Just because a speaker is rated at 52 hz doesn't mean it does it well.
Riis
Run everyone through the pa? Why would I do that? I play in a thrash punk band, we play in people's living rooms, basements and garages, for free or maybe gas money. Why would we run everyone through the pa (or buy a pa? I make 13k a year, I'm not wasting money on a pa) when we could just set the bass and guitar stacks side by side behind the drummer, throw the single pa speaker that was provided for vocals on top and have everything sound fine? Also, its a matter of real estate, theres barely enough room for us and our gear plus the 30 other people in the room.
- Jun 3, 2009
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Someone posted a couple of pages ago that they had never been on a gig where the bass was never taken through the PA, which of course is the rub. Just about every house sound system they sound guy wants to take the bass direct, pre-effect or eq and tweek the sound. They don't do that with guitars. Guitar amps get miked. We have to go direct. Why is that?
So, big rig becomes important IMHO. I would love to hear from a guitar player what they would say if the sound guy took their guitar direct before getting to the amp, with no eq, no effects, etc.
I've gotten some regular clubs down to just miking the kick drum and then two overheads and taking my bass through my pedal, which has an XLR out that I can make pre or post effect.
So, big rig becomes important IMHO. I would love to hear from a guitar player what they would say if the sound guy took their guitar direct before getting to the amp, with no eq, no effects, etc.
I've gotten some regular clubs down to just miking the kick drum and then two overheads and taking my bass through my pedal, which has an XLR out that I can make pre or post effect.
Yeah, it sucks when the drummer can't hear the bass: kind of hard to get a groove locked down when that happens.
I want the lead guitar to hear me too.
Thats what monitors are for.
With that kind of thinking you will never get out of playing in the garage.
I'm sorry, but I don't think that you (or by the sound of it, the other 90% of the people who posted in this thread) get it or have played in any punk/metal/etc bands and associated venues. Usually there is no room or time for your own PA even if you did have one. That's just not how it is with this kind of scene. With that said, you can perfectly well sound great without micing the band as long as the band actually knows how to get a good mix going. Here's a perfect example of a huge wall of amps with no PA support (only for vocals) and it still sounds great:
With that kind of thinking you will never get out of playing in the garage.
Not true.
If you are good enough you'll have plenty of opportunities to play.
Please note not everyone can afford big PA systems and 95% of the crowd doesn't care about your tone anyway.
Unless a PA is provided we don't mike the drums - guitar/bass amps can handle it and we use an old Line 6 amp for vocals. Less watts than a powered monitor, but a more efficient speaker.
In my opinion music is all about vibe and mojo and stuff. And if sound quality matters the venue will provide a PA anyway.
I mean, if you play in a living room - how important is that gig? Not important at all, but the crowd won't mind because it's better than playing a cd. It's all about attitude towards music imo.
And I don't think it's scene -related - I play in a blues/rock band.
At this point when we do bigger city shows here, I've got most of the local techs convinced that micing my amp is the way to go.
It took a while.
With so many rigs that have two or three way boxes, it's understandable that DIs are the norm - if you're not getting everything from one driver micing is dicey.
You kind of have to prove to them it's going to work.
With that kind of thinking you will never get out of playing in the garage.
Why do people assume that everyone wants to be out of the garage? There are different levels of success that we all strive for.
