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BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

#141
Sundogue said:
Two 4000 watt QSC power amps driving two JBL SRX728 subs kind of negate the need for a powerful personal bass rig to "carry the room" and the rhythm section benefits as well, thus the whole band does...even when we aren't very loud. Best bass rig I ever bought. Certainly "carries" any room. ;) Allows me to use only a 210 onstage for most gigs and two 210's for outdoor larger gigs. Drummer gets to use it too. ;)
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This can be entirely true, unless the bass isn't in the mains enough to be heard on stage. Or if, to pull an example from my recent experience, let's say that your lead singer/guitar player is running about 4000W of monitors. For himself. No, I'm not making this up. And so all you can hear on stage is a load of guitar, and vocals. This is where suddenly my happy little Bergantino 322 starts to complain that while it may be rated at 800W it really isn't rated at 1500, and threatens to become unhappy. (And all the time he's saying "I can't hear the bass over here, turn up!")

So, OK, so a 322 isn't exactly a small or light speaker (at 93 pounds) but that's the point. That's for small gigs without PA support. With PA support, I find that sometimes I need a lot *more*. Those high-powered stage monitors don't seem to do well below 100Hz, but they do great around 5K and I do have to compete with that.

It's about control. You take way more than you need and then you exercise self control. (Or not, sometimes.)

Personally, I actually miss the days when we'd take a couple of monitors on stands for the vocals and call it good. We played much quieter in those days. I used to run 50W and I could hear myself and everything. *sigh*

(Correction: much quieter, except for guitar players. What is it with guitar players anyway?)
 
#142
thudfromafar said:
In theory you may be right, stuart, but if you have ever played with originals/rock/punk/metal groups with shared sets, it's really not practical as you think. Plus, that's for a working musician. Not everyone wants a $350 instrument or no bass rig, just because it's more efficient. Some people like to play basses that are more expensive, and having a practice rig and more control/ownership/transportability over their bass sound.
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I understand that. I currently own 9 basses and 3 separate rigs (including an SVT2Pro and Aguilar cabs). I well understand wanting great guitars and rigs and the pleasure that comes from playing them over lesser instruments and rigs. I was just responding to the post that talked purely about the economics of it.

As far as the whole subject of multi-band shows go, I'm on the same page as Sundogue. If you're saying that it's a gig where there is no PA that will carry all the drums, then your bass rig doesn't need to be big to match the drums. If the PA can carry all the drums, then you should be able to run your bass through it and, again not NEED a big rig. If you're saying that the gig/venue is such that you're going to need to be louder than that, and have no PA support, then what you're telling me is that you KNOW the audience is not going to be able to hear most of the drums (at least) - i.e. your band is not going to sound good. Or maybe you don't think people need to hear your drummer in order for you to sound good - I guess that's down to your personal taste - but it you don't care if the audience hears him, why keep him in the band? And, like Sundogue said, if it's a gig where I KNOW my band is not going to be able to sound good, I'll pass, thanks. I'd rather not play than play and sound bad.
 
#143
tekhedd said:
This can be entirely true, unless the bass isn't in the mains enough to be heard on stage. Or if, to pull an example from my recent experience, let's say that your lead singer/guitar player is running about 4000W of monitors. For himself. No, I'm not making this up. And so all you can hear on stage is a load of guitar, and vocals. This is where suddenly my happy little Bergantino 322 starts to complain that while it may be rated at 800W it really isn't rated at 1500, and threatens to become unhappy. (And all the time he's saying "I can't hear the bass over here, turn up!")

So, OK, so a 322 isn't exactly a small or light speaker (at 93 pounds) but that's the point. That's for small gigs without PA support. With PA support, I find that sometimes I need a lot *more*. Those high-powered stage monitors don't seem to do well below 100Hz, but they do great around 5K and I do have to compete with that.

It's about control. You take way more than you need and then you exercise self control. (Or not, sometimes.)

Personally, I actually miss the days when we'd take a couple of monitors on stands for the vocals and call it good. We played much quieter in those days. I used to run 50W and I could hear myself and everything. *sigh*
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Great example that supports my own experience - which is that every player I've played with that felt like they "needed" a big amp (whether it was guitar or bass) ALWAYS turns their junk up too loud (and maybe that's just my bad luck). They make it where the rest of the band can't hear what they need to hear (at least, not without turning their own rigs up). And it ends up making it where what the audience hears is just random luck on whether it's good or bad because they're really just hearing the stage mix.
 
#146
tekhedd said:
This can be entirely true, unless the bass isn't in the mains enough to be heard on stage.
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That shouldn't be an issue. A Yamaha Club Series V SM112V (i.e. a 12" stage monitor) with 350W driving it puts out enough bass for my band's bass player to hear himself (his bass and his vocals) just fine. It's all we use at rehearsals. Even with his 5 string, it puts out plenty of volume to match my drumset - even in our small room practice space, where my drums are extra loud. Actually, I use IEMs even during practice and sometimes I have to ask the bass player to turn down the Level on his SA BDDI, even with my IEMs in, because it's TOO loud. At gigs, that plus whatever comes back from the subs in the mains is PLENTY.

Besides, as has already been pointed out, bass is omni-directional. If the bass player can't hear the bass coming from the mains, then the audience can't either and it needs to be turned up in the mains. (again, this talking about gigs in venues big enough that somebody might say you would need a "big" rig)
 
#148
thudfromafar said:
That's good to know, thanks

A question though, how should kick drum be run in the PA?
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It's the one instrument that isn't loud enough on it's own to be without PA support, unless they're E drums. Floor toms are close. If not for kick and floor you could get away without subs entirely using mains capable of reaching to 60Hz flat. If that's low enough for a Fridge it's enough for PA.
 
#150
billfitzmaurice said:
It's the one instrument that isn't loud enough on it's own to be without PA support, unless they're E drums. Floor toms are close. If not for kick and floor you could get away without subs entirely using mains capable of reaching to 60Hz flat. If that's low enough for a Fridge it's enough for PA.
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There's the catch. My 3-way speakers are rated down to 52 hz but conventional wisdom drives us to xover @ 100 hz and add subs to handle the 50-100 hz content.

Riis
 
#151
Being a guy who has played in punk, hardcore and metal bands for 15 years in a town with zero legitimate venues, I strongly identify with this! I'm just warming up to the idea of micro stacks and such now that I'm recording myself at home for fun. I've gone on multiple tours where there was hardly a soundman to be found and I'd rather hear my amp blasting out of my Ampeg 8x10 at high volume than strain to hear myself over the drums through someone's crappy $200 PA.

In a perfect world every gig would have a high quality sound system and an experienced, sane soundman. In a perfect world I'd be thinner and richer too, I'm not holding my breath :D
 
#152
#154
True. But, I don't think anybody would say that a decent 210 combo is "big". Yet I would think that a decent 210 combo would cover any gig where the only PA is a "little vocal system" and/or the venue owner wants to "keep the level down" and/or it's so small that there's no room for a PA.

My Peavey BAM210 will get pretty darned loud!
 
#155
Sundogue said:
I've dealt with band owned PA's and break-ups many, many times. However, there is a right and wrong way to deal with things. Things need to be spelled out contractually in a business-like manner. GET things down in writing. It makes everything so clear after the fact.

That statement says a lot. And backs up my claim that most bass players choose to take no responsibility for the band sound...only their own.

I certainly don't call taking responsibility for the sound of the band a worthless expense or hassle.

I want to make this very clear...I have no problem with anyone not using a PA. Do or don't, doesn't matter to me. But if you don't, then don't bitch about not having one or having no control over the band's sound.

That's my whole point here. I read people bitching about no PA but doing nothing about it except bringing their own rig. Very weird.
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I'm really not sure how you get from not owning the PA to not taking responsibility for the sound of the band. They are two different things.

I don't own a PA. I do take responsibility for getting out front and making sure the band sounds good. Your argument is specious.

I've also dealt with band owned PAs. They're a PITA whether you do them the right way or the wrong way, even if no one gets lawyers involved after the fact.
 
#156
StuartV said:
Where in that does it mean that you would have a NEED for a "big" rig (i.e. the point of the original post)?
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Because sometimes even those little rooms fill up with bodies and you want the bass to be felt.

I guess the question about what's a big rig is relevant. I generally bring a pair of single 15"s and either a V4B or SVT. It certainly is bigger than a 210 combo.
 
#158
Some of y'all seem to think that you can buy your way onto bigger stages: big wallet, big PA, better sound.

It must really burn your butt to know there are cats like Bob out there than can get it done in any situation.
 
#159
...unless the bass isn't in the mains enough to be heard on stage.
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StuartV said:
That shouldn't be an issue.
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I completely agree. But it often is, for some reason. In fact, when I go see other bands around here, it seems like the only two things audible out front are vocals and kick drum. (Edit: makes you think, doesn't it? Theory: all amps are pointed directly at the sound man.)

By default, I tend to play just loud enough to make out what note I'm playing and no louder, unless I'm specifically asked to turn up. This is because no band I've played with is entirely immune to the "volume creeping up" effect. This is one down side of a high stage volume. (The other one is ear plugs.)

Nevertheless, the two bands I'm playing with now want to actually hear the bass on stage (go figure) and this means bringing something big and loud. Might as well enjoy it, is what I figure.
 
#160
tekhedd said:
I completely agree. But it often is, for some reason. In fact, when I go see other bands around here, it seems like the only two things audible out front are vocals and kick drum. (Edit: makes you think, doesn't it? Theory: all amps are pointed directly at the sound man.)

By default, I tend to play just loud enough to make out what note I'm playing and no louder, unless I'm specifically asked to turn up. This is because no band I've played with is entirely immune to the "volume creeping up" effect. This is one down side of a high stage volume. (The other one is ear plugs.)

Nevertheless, the two bands I'm playing with now want to actually hear the bass on stage (go figure) and this means bringing something big and loud. Might as well enjoy it, is what I figure.
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+1
 

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