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Beginner Financial Investing.

Holy cow, you followed a Yankee fan? Oy!

:D

I am assuming you did your own due diligence on things, and if so; well played! (If not, please research to make sure it meets your investing needs.)

It was before I knew you were a Yankee fan; but I utilize good advice wherever I find it. I did my diligence - what I saw was that I had too many actively managed funds that were either closet indexers or that were clearly underperforming the indexes - so I moved a lot of that into indexes and eliminated some fees. I kept funds that filled a niche or really seemed to know what they were doing in their space.
 
For clarity, I mean 16% per year for 4 years, not 16% over the course of 4 years.

I'd misunderstood. That's really good then. Better than the real niflation rate.



I am thru @ 75 pages of EOD and am formulating a few "side plans". I will most probably bounce a pm or 2 off you in the future on that as well.

Looking forward to it. I suggest emailing instead though. And thanks for the kind words.


Today's amusing reads :

California Homes Are Overvalued by as Much as 40%, Goldman Says Invalid Link Removed

"Californian homes are overvalued by as much as 40 percent and stricter lending standards will probably contribute to 'material' price declines, according to analysts at Goldman Sachs. "


United States National Debt (1938 to Present)
Invalid Link Removed

"I place economy among the first and most important republican virtues, and public debt as the greatest of the dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt."

- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)



From today's "Daily Reckoning" by Bonner

"You’ve got to hand it to the Goldman crowd. They gave investors what they wanted – good and hard. They securitized these dicey mortgages...sold them to their customers...and then, in order to protect themselves from the inevitable losses...sold them short!

And now Goldman (NYSE:GS) says that California residential property – the very stuff that provides the ‘security’ in their securitized credits – is overpriced by as much as 40%.

No, we’re not laughing at Goldman...we’re saluting. Any Humpty Dumpty investor dumb enough to sit on this wall deserves to be pushed. Goldman gave them all a shove – and made money doing it.

And the Humpty Dumpties are still climbing up, hoping to get something for nothing up there. A report from Minneapolis reminds us how hard it is to crush out this kind of optimism:

From the New York Times :

“MINNEAPOLIS, Oct. 21 – In a down real estate market, they came to buy. They came early, they came in numbers and they came with bank checks for $5,000.

“By 10 a.m. Saturday, more than 700 people filled a hall in the convention center here for what real estate agents say is the largest auction of foreclosed properties ever in Minnesota, with more than 300 houses or apartments for sale in two days. Opening bids ranged from $1,000 – for a three-bedroom house – to $729,000, for a five-bedroom house on 11.9 acres. The crowd was standing-room only, with more waiting to enter. Some were looking for homes, others for investments.”

Housing prices in the United States are falling nationwide; but in the minds of most house buyers, it is still a bull market. They have lived with rising prices for so long they now take it for granted that that is just the way things work. “House prices always go up in the long run,” they believe. But the run they are thinking of is only about 10 years long. Before that, prices rose – but only about as much as inflation. In some areas, of course, real prices rose with population and economic growth. In others, real prices fell. Overall, for the last century, there was little overall improvement in housing prices.

And why should there be? Housing is not an investment. It is a durable consumer good – one that needs maintenance, and one on which you have to pay property taxes. If it were a stock, it would be one with a negative dividend...you’d have to pay the company each year for the privilege of owning it. You can make money developing property. You can make money investing in property. You can make money building houses, too. But you can’t expect to make money buying houses.

Still, you would probably be wasting your breath trying to explain that to the crowd in Minnesota last weekend. They thought housing was the best way to make money ever invented. And they thought current market conditions offered an excellent opportunity to get in while the getting was good.

“The market’s really low right now, so you can get a good price,” said one buyer, a waitress who was not looking for a place to live, but a place she could fix up and sell. “Even if you can’t sell it right away, if you just sit on it and sit on it, it will go up.”

In Minneapolis, more than half the foreclosures this year involved houses that owners were sitting on, rather than living in. They were properties that were supposed to make the owners money, not provide them with a roof over their heads.

Whatever happened to those Humpties, we don’t know, but there are plenty more ready to take their places on the wall. One man at the auction bought a four-bedroom house at the auction for $145,000, without ever seeing it:

“I just looked at the picture and thought if we got it cheap enough, we could rent it for a year, then sell it when the market goes back up.”

“It won’t always be so low,” said another potential Dumpty.

No, it could be lower. "
 
6 months ago, a friend of mine bought a house from HUD for $97,000. They still owe, you guessed it, $97,000. Recently, I'm seeing homes go for as little as $30,000 from bank to buyer. These are houses that would sell for nearly double that price in my area a year ago. Make a note as well, these properties are selling for BELOW the State Equalized Value from banks to homeowners. When I was doing mortgages 5 years ago, we would always value the house at double the SEV.

This whole housing business is scary stuff, and this is only the beginning. Its going to take a big (and I mean BIG) crash before people really get the bigger picture. I've watched millions and millions lost in my local area of Housing Values. The real winners right now are the ones who don't own.
 
Unbelievably, prices have not dropped (by any margin I can see) at all. This is no doubt due to my location, which is Fairfield County CT.

That is the money quote and there is nothing unbelievable about it.

As is joelb79's: "I've watched millions and millions lost in my local area of Housing Values." emphasis mine. That is awful for all who own property but 100% believable.

The law of supply and demand functions in the real estate market as it does everywhere else.

A good way to make money is to have cash (or really good credit) when no one else does. The waitress in Minnesota might be right - right now there is a lot of supply (due to the foreclosed stock) and not much demand which is the (partially because of a credit squeeze), high supply + low demand = low prices. If you think that people won't want to live in houses in the future or that the credit squeeze is permanent - then by all means don't buy a house or at minimum avoid real estate as an investment. But if either side of that equation starts to change (eg the foreclosures abate and the banks sell off all their REO reducing supply and the credit market eases up increasing demand) then prices will come back. The current situation is nowhere near as bad around here as what I lived through (personally and professionally - I was in the REO department of the National Credit Union Administration) in the early 90's when New England was in a huge economic recession that followed a building boom. It was about six-seven years from peak to valley; but then prices quickly regained the ground they lost.

If you can buy houses for well below their replacement cost, then you will likely make money at some point, if you can buy for so low that the rent covers the nut, then you are making money from the beginning.
 
I guess my bleak perspective is from living in Michigan. We've been seeing the local economy crash for over a year now, and then this whole real estate business starts. Its seems like there is no way to get ahead around here. I decided to give up looking for a job and run up my college education bill another $10,000. I now hold a job that puts me on the outer edge of poverty, and that is fine for me. I'll break the poverty level when we can get through the college part of life for both me and my wife.

Michigan has the highest unemployment rate, one of the highest populous' living at poverty level, and its economy is based on the dying automotive industry. The amount of foreclosures is staggering, and seems to touch just about every street you can drive down. Rich or poor, apartments or single family dwellings, there is a large and vast number of people who have lost them.

Take for example, an old apartment complex I used to live in. Total of 20 units. The owner purchased the property for $580,000 in 1995. At peak occupancy, there would have been a cash flow of around $10,000 a month. He sold the apartments on a LC in 2005 for around $1.5 million. The new owner went bankrupt, and subsequently the power and water were shut off to the buildings making them unlivable. They sit today as an eye sore and will most likely be burned down by gang activity in the area.

This has happened in just about every low income area. It seemed a year ago we were starting to see the downturn of the economy when unemployment was at 7.1%. These kinds of stories were on the news every day. Where these properties used to be money makers, they are now money pits and crime ridden.

The real money is to be made by people who can buy these dilapidated properties and make them into rentals that are government subsidized. Guaranteed money. Buy low, let the interiors get destroyed by the dwellers, and then sell them as flips 10 years from now. That sounds like a winner in the real estate business.
 
Thanks muchly!

Interestingly, I spent some time reviewing the homes listings in my weekly town newspaper this week, something I have not done in at least a year.

Unbelievably, prices have not dropped (by any margin I can see) at all. This is no doubt due to my location, which is Fairfield County CT. It is the closest part of CT to NYC, and the demand to get in is nuts. My town has grown unbelievably in the @ decade that I have lived there.

And of course, the fact that prices have remained high means that it is a TERRIBLE time to buy here. One would be paying absolute top dollar, and these houses ain't cheap.

I am expecting the bottom to drop out here at least to some extent. It simply cannot go on forever...

There was an article in the Courant's real estate section a couple weeks ago talking about how the median price for a home in CT had risen over the 300K mark in the last year. IIRC, median prices had gone up 2.9%.
 
Well put!

I'd imagine that your location is holding somewhat strong as well due to proximity to Boston?

Yes, Newton is holding its value; there will not be enough subprime forclosures to increase supply enough to have an effect on prices. That said, prices have essentially been flat over the past few years so SMASH is 100% correct in that I have lost ground to inflation in that time. Fortunately, home prices around here were kicking inflation's butt for the previous decade. :D We've been in this house for 11 years and I hope to have another 11 or more.

But even Newton is no sure thing - in the big recession in the early 90's, Newton homes went down in price as thousands of good paying jobs were lost.
 
I guess my bleak perspective is from living in Michigan. We've been seeing the local economy crash for over a year now, and then this whole real estate business starts. Its seems like there is no way to get ahead around here. I decided to give up looking for a job and run up my college education bill another $10,000. I now hold a job that puts me on the outer edge of poverty, and that is fine for me. I'll break the poverty level when we can get through the college part of life for both me and my wife.

Michigan has the highest unemployment rate, one of the highest populous' living at poverty level, and its economy is based on the dying automotive industry. The amount of foreclosures is staggering, and seems to touch just about every street you can drive down. Rich or poor, apartments or single family dwellings, there is a large and vast number of people who have lost them.

Take for example, an old apartment complex I used to live in. Total of 20 units. The owner purchased the property for $580,000 in 1995. At peak occupancy, there would have been a cash flow of around $10,000 a month. He sold the apartments on a LC in 2005 for around $1.5 million. The new owner went bankrupt, and subsequently the power and water were shut off to the buildings making them unlivable. They sit today as an eye sore and will most likely be burned down by gang activity in the area.

This has happened in just about every low income area. It seemed a year ago we were starting to see the downturn of the economy when unemployment was at 7.1%. These kinds of stories were on the news every day. Where these properties used to be money makers, they are now money pits and crime ridden.

The real money is to be made by people who can buy these dilapidated properties and make them into rentals that are government subsidized. Guaranteed money. Buy low, let the interiors get destroyed by the dwellers, and then sell them as flips 10 years from now. That sounds like a winner in the real estate business.

That part of the country is going through some tough times.

The key stat to look at is the total number of jobs in an area not so much the unemployment rate. When the jobs number starts heading up, so to will the house values. I hope it is soon; but I am not real optimistic for all the reasons that you cited.
 
Thanks muchly!

Interestingly, I spent some time reviewing the homes listings in my weekly town newspaper this week, something I have not done in at least a year.

Unbelievably, prices have not dropped (by any margin I can see) at all. This is no doubt due to my location, which is Fairfield County CT. ...

The fancypants areas have not yet begun to feel it. This thing is just getting underway.

I can assure anyone reading that hundreds of people showing up to auctions, real estate in the daily headlines, and waitresses speculating in real estate thinking it's as simple as "it always goes up" is a sure sign of a *top* and not a bottom in the market.

When listings sit for months and when no one even talks about real estate - that's the bottom. That's a long way off yet.


=============


From today's Daily Reckoning :

“The idea that housing doesn’t go down turns on its head when you actually calculate in the real-world costs of interest, taxes, insurance, etc. For instance, before those costs are counted, it looks like 16 out of the 17 top real estate markets in the 1990s were in the black. Once you add them in, however, it turns out that not one of the top property markets went up. They were all negative.

“In the 2000s, up to May 2007, you get something similar...three markets that, in unrealistic terms supposedly shot up 18%, 33%, and 36% during that period, are all actually net losers...down 10.5%, 13.4%, and 28.2%. As in negative. The gains were phantom stats from the fantasy world of no-cost property ownership.

“Running through the rest of the list, the other major markets did still make money. But instead of the astounding triple-digit gains property owners love to point to as proof that this bubble was the real deal, you find out that only two of the markets – net of costs – actually crossed the 100%-gain mark (instead of 10 markets). And annualized, only two markets were even a little above 10% gains in property values.

“Not bad, but not a miracle by any stretch.

“Two more of those top markets just barely squeaked past the annualized 8.5% gains in the S&P 500 for the same period. All the rest of the top 17 markets looked at in this article did worse than the S&P. During what was supposed to be the biggest property boom of all time.

“Again, this isn’t to say there wasn’t a bubble. Just that it truly was an event completely devoid of sanity.”



=============


If that isn't bad enough, let's also factor that the average home has balooned in size. So, if the avg. house in 1985 was 1200 sq. ft. and the avg. McMansion is now 3000 sq. ft. then it should cost about double or more, should it not?

60 Minutes "Living Large" Link Removed

It'd be very interesting to see if the price per sq. ft. has gone "up" as much as the price of homes supposedly has.

But this isn't all about real estate though, it's about what is happening to the average American household and consumer. And what effect will that have on the economy and how can one protect themselves from it and profit from it?

Maybe housing prices won't go down in richer communities, but if the people who live there own car dealerships and electronics outlets and restaurants and Joe & Mary Sixpack are going broke then how will those rich people do when their businesses and stocks are losing money? What about when their taxes keep rising and the cost of heating their oversized homes keeps rising? Maybe then, a couple years from now, they'll need to sell to "downsize".

Same thing at the national level - what will happen to people individually due to the national debt and profligacy? And once again, how can we protect ourselves and profit?

It's not about my home value or yours or theirs - that's not useful to the average reader here - it's about what is going on at the macro level, that's where we should focus I suggest.

As I said in recent posts, one's house can only be traded for a house of similar value in a similar naighbourhood with a similar crime level and similar schools and amenities, etc. Whether the price in dollars goes up or down that will still be true, which is why a house is not an investment. In the meantime taxes go up and the infrastructure is literally crumbling. Infrastructure is an amenity, is it not? Is that quality of it factored into housing prices? Is the cost of repairing and upkeeping it? Nope.

2nd properties are perhaps "investments", but then see above for the real costs and real returns. And none of the above even mentions risks or the costs of selling.

But if people insist on thinking they're richer because their house nominally goes up in value as measured in drastically depreciating dollars, then I guess all the gov't has to do is keep fouling the economy so there's lots of easy money and a dropping currency and the party never ends ... only it does end at some point. It always ends, and IMO it's only starting to end.


=============


"In the next six months, one year, two years," Warren Buffett said this morning, offering up a rare taste of bearish sentiment, “the problems in the mortgage market can cause a lot of problems with consumers and hurt buying power in the United States.” He went on to warn that crisis would have “more of an impact” than investors have already endured.


"We are still negative on the dollar," Buffett continued, shifting his focus to Berkshire’s strategy for dealing with the troubled U.S. currency. “We bought stocks in companies that are earning their money in other currencies. We are gaining foreign currency exposure.” His comments echo Jim Rogers’ and Julian Robertson’s bearishness from yesterday.


=============


For those who don't know, Jim Rogers is an investing legend about on par with Buffet to those in-the-know.


"Jim Rogers, chairman of Beeland Interests Inc., said he is shifting all his assets out of the dollar and buying Chinese yuan because the Federal Reserve has eroded the value of the U.S. currency.

The Chinese currency, known as the renminbi, or yuan, is "the best currency to buy right now," Rogers said. "I don't see how one can really lose on the renminbi in the next decade or so. It's gotta go. It's gotta triple. It's gotta quadruple."

The yuan strengthened past 7.5 to the dollar today for the first [time] since the central bank ended a fixed exchange rate in July 2005. The currency has gained 10.5 percent since the dollar link was abandoned.

Rogers also is buying Swiss francs and Japanese yen, which he said have been "pounded down" because of the so-called carry trades. "

– Bloomberg


=============


And these guys have a well-deserved reputation for being correct and being early. Oh-oh.

Back to the theme of seeing trends emerging and profiting, today I call an end to the fad that is Crocs shoes. I bought $40 put options recently on the stock with a 2010 expiry. With luck, I may have actually caught the exact top. The stock was $67, and all trends come to an end ... and those shoes are damn ugly.

As for housing, well everyone got fair warnings when those Bear Stearns funds went kaput this summer. Did the average homeowner think of hedging? I doubt it.

Me? I'm holding onto the put options I mentioned on October 11. I'm already up a few hundred percent on some, and in the case of Home Depot, for every dollar it drops under $30 I will be making 270% gains. Not a typo. Each option cost me 27c a few weeks ago and nets me $1 for every dollar HD drops below $30. Hooray for leverage and thinking ahead of even Buffet !

In the emerging Empire of Debt, people won't be building new homes too quickly or remodelling their bathrooms. HD's earnings are due Nov 13.

Invalid Link Removed

On Lowes I make a 15% gain for every dollar it drops currently. Their numbers are due Nov 19. Invalid Link Removed

On CFC I'm making 100% on my investment for each dollar it drops below $15. Their numbers are due this Friday. Wouldn't surprise me to see them go bankrupt at some point. Shall we see runs on a US bank as we did in the Great Depression? Could be. There was a run on a major UK bank recently. History repeats.

Even if it doesn't get that bad, why would anyone in their right mind be banking with Countrywide right now? Because they're not thinking, that's why. Too busy watching schlockbusters on a big screen TV, all paid for on credit of course. Invalid Link Removed Why are pensions invested in this garbage (or any stocks) and people don't care until they've lost it all? How will that affect their credit ratings and debt ratio? Invalid Link Removed

On MBI I'm making 25% for every dollar it drops below $50. And it dropped massively today on its numbers and IMO will drop a lot more. Invalid Link Removed

I've been mentioning many of these are great shorts for some time now, and have booked similar gains on these already on previous positions. That's a real-world example of what can be done to protect oneself and one's capital, and as I said with the warning shots earlier this summer anyone could have seen this coming.

That's the kind of thinking, whether the plays turn out right or wrong or too early or too late that a successful investor has going on in their mind everywhere they look. "Hey that Toyota looks nice, I wonder how the stock is doing?" or "Hey the average consumer is really farked, I wonder what the result will be?" or "Hmmm, bridges collapsing and the Corps of Army Engineers saying there are many more on the ropes ... what companies will benefit from infrastructure spending?"

Etc.

I harped on similar themes in the "Gas prices going up!" threads at length. Everyone was sure prices would keep going up (and oil prices have) but they would rather make uninformed arguments about consipracies and supply vs. demand then take action to lock-in their prices, and even make big profits. Average oil & gas stocks are up about 200% since then. Who took action? Kinda sad, IMO.

Of course I lose on some ideas, and on others I am too early such as taking an 80% gain on this stock in the example portfolio [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] and the stock jumped over 40% today alone, but a win is a win.

Anyway, IMO, the "big picture" is the direction these economic events we discuss should be focusing us. Someone can say "well the falling dollar doesn't matter to me 'cause I earn and spend in the US and never buy any foregn goods or go on vacation abroad" but the fact is that in the "big picture" they could have gained an extra 40% of those dollars just by putting their savings into a different currency. That surely matters, does it not?

So...I take it nobody uses matresses anymore? :hmm:

Well, almost no one has any savings anymore so I guess not. Too busy buying junk on credit. In which case, what does a rising Chinese currency mean for the US comsumer? Prices wil go up. So why do people who are in debt and shop at Wal-Mart cheer the lame sabre-rattling some grandstanding politicians are making to try to get the Chinese - who are in the driver's seat in this matter arguably - to raise the value of their currency? And of coruse how can we profit from it? Seems like Buffet and Rogers asked themselves the same questions and came to some definite answers.

Anyway, this is all of course just my opinion and in my case I like to put my money where my mouth is, as the saying goes. Whatever direction this all takes, the varied opinions and increased participation makes for an excellent thread.


=============


From today's Rude Awakening :

Sub-Prime? So Over! Part II
By Adrian Ash

Goldman Sachs bucked the trend this summer by making money – pots of money – selling subprime bonds short. Ironically, Goldman also issued what might prove the most toxic of all subprime bonds back in 2006. In other words, the
savvy investment bank sold the same junk twice, and make a tidy profit both times.

None of the other big banks, however, had the chutzpah to short the very market in junk they'd given birth to – not yet, at least. And few banks seem to have created bonds quite as toxic as Goldman did.

Take last year's vintage, for example. In 2006, Goldman Sachs' mortgage-bond division – Alternative Mortgage Products (known as GSAMP for short) – issued 83 home loan-backed bonds, valued at $44.5 billion. In the subprime sector, it grew its business by 59% from 2005, unloading some $12.9 billion on to unsuspecting, stupid and/or greedy investment fund managers who thought a bond under-pinned by home-buyers with no hope of repaying might be worth having.

According to Inside Mortgage Finance, that made GSAMP the 15th biggest issuer of subprime-backed bonds in 2006. And come the start of the third quarter this year, those securities were being downgraded by the credit ratings agencies faster than anyone else's.

Research from Citigroup, dated 22nd June, found that "portions of Goldman's GSAMP-issued bonds, which include subprime loans from a variety of lenders, have been downgraded a combined 69 times by Standard & Poor's and Moody's Investors Service in the year through June 15."

"Sixty of the GSAMP downgrades refer to classes from 2006 bonds," Citigroup added, and one of Goldman's 2006 crop – the GSAMP Trust 2006-S3 – may actually be "the worst deal...floated by a top-tier firm," reckons Allan Sloane in the Washington Post.

In spring 2006, "Goldman assembled 8,274 second-mortgage loans originated by Fremont Investment & Loan, Long Beach Mortgage, and assorted other players," explains Sloane after studying the public record. "More than one-third of the loans were in California, then a hot market. It was a run-of-the-mill deal [face-value $494 million], one of the 916 residential-mortgage-backed issues totaling $592 billion that were sold last year.

"The average equity [these] borrowers had in their homes was 0.71%...[meaning] the average loan-to-value of the issue's borrowers was 99.29%.

"It gets even kinkier," Sloane goes on. "Some 58% of the loans were no-documentation or low-documentation. This means that though 98% of the borrowers said they were occupying the homes they were borrowing on – 'owner-
occupied' loans are considered less risky than loans to speculators – no one knows if that was true. And no one knows whether borrowers' incomes or assets bore any serious relationship to what they told the mortgage lenders."

Whatever the truth, one in every six of the 8,274 mortgages bundled together in GSAMP Trust 2006-S3 was already in default 18 months later. [...]

:)
 
But this isn't all about real estate though, it's about what is happening to the average American household and consumer. And what effect will that have on the economy and how can one protect themselves from it and profit from it?

Maybe housing prices won't go down in richer communities, but if the people who live there own car dealerships and electronics outlets and restaurants and Joe & Mary Sixpack are going broke then how will those rich people do when their businesses and stocks are losing money? What about when their taxes keep rising and the cost of heating their oversized homes keeps rising? Maybe then, a couple years from now, they'll need to sell to "downsize".

Same thing at the national level - what will happen to people individually due to the national debt and profligacy? And once again, how can we protect ourselves and profit?

It's not about my home value or yours or theirs - that's not useful to the average reader here - it's about what is going on at the macro level, that's where we should focus I suggest.

As I said in recent posts, one's house can only be traded for a house of similar value in a similar naighbourhood with a similar crime level and similar schools and amenities, etc. Whether the price in dollars goes up or down that will still be true, which is why a house is not an investment. In the meantime taxes go up and the infrastructure is literally crumbling. Infrastructure is an amenity, is it not? Is that quality of it factored into housing prices? Is the cost of repairing and upkeeping it? Nope.

2nd properties are perhaps "investments", but then see above for the real costs and real returns. And none of the above even mentions risks or the costs of selling.

But if people insist on thinking they're richer because their house nominally goes up in value as measured in drastically depreciating dollars, then I guess all the gov't has to do is keep fouling the economy so there's lots of easy money and a dropping currency and the party never ends ... only it does end at some point. It always ends, and IMO it's only starting to end.

I understand that your intent with posting the excerpts from the bearish newsletters is to focus on the macro level. The effect of people spending the equity in their houses by refinancing and/or spending more than they might otherwise because they feel confident with the equity in their houses has undoubtedly lead to a runup in all sorts of consumer discretionary spending and the drop in house prices in many parts of the country will have a negative effect on spending. The Fed and Wall Street has been trying to get their hands around the magnitude of this issue for months if not years. You are making moves based on this effect being large; I think that it is not as large an effect as you think; but I wish you the best of luck nonetheless.

But I am worried that the effect of your posts and the excerpts from the bearish newsletters is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Therefore, I respectfully disagree that what happens at the micro level with the decision of the average reader to rent or buy is not really important or that the purchase of house (as opposed to renting) is not an investment.

The purchase of a home is the single biggest purchase that most of us will ever make. You may argue that since it is a purchase that is largely financed with debt that it somehow doesn't count. I would suggest that this is a huge advantage - name another investment that allows the average Joe or Jane to leverage their savings to the same extent. Let's take Connecticut as an example - put down 5% ($15,000) on a $300,000 house; live in it for 7 years; assume prices match inflation (say 3% - that is a conservative assumption). Sell it for $369,000 less 6% broker commission and 2% misc costs and you have a $39,480 return for your initial down payment of $15,000 and your $26,255 of principle payments. So $41,255 turns into $39,480 which works out to roughly a 96% return over that time in really a pretty realistic conservative terms. If inflation is 3% per year and you just made 10% compounded per year - how is that a bad thing? You can then buy something similar or something more expensive or something cheaper that better fits your needs. The other advantage that real estate as an investment has over other forms of investment is that the average Joe and Jane has a sufficiently good feeling for it to make an informed decision when buying a house or condo unit.

If you believe Tiebout - everything is reflected in the house price and people in essence "vote with their feet" and move to the area that gives them the amenities that they want at a price they are willing to pay. In my community house prices are directly related to the perception of the quality of our public schools which is one reason we are building a new Taj Mahigh and regularly pass property tax overrides to support an excellent school system. Overall, it can be a little confusing in the US as different infrastructure needs in the US are paid for by different taxes (gas, income, property) that go to different levels of government (local, county, state, federal). To me the infrastructure play is not to short my house (or residential real estate in general) but to invest in steel and concrete and perhaps large engineering/building firms.
 
"In the next six months, one year, two years," Warren Buffett said this morning, offering up a rare taste of bearish sentiment, “the problems in the mortgage market can cause a lot of problems with consumers and hurt buying power in the United States.” He went on to warn that crisis would have “more of an impact” than investors have already endured.


"We are still negative on the dollar," Buffett continued, shifting his focus to Berkshire’s strategy for dealing with the troubled U.S. currency. “We bought stocks in companies that are earning their money in other currencies. We are gaining foreign currency exposure.” His comments echo Jim Rogers’ and Julian Robertson’s bearishness from yesterday.


=============


For those who don't know, Jim Rogers is an investing legend about on par with Buffet to those in-the-know.


"Jim Rogers, chairman of Beeland Interests Inc., said he is shifting all his assets out of the dollar and buying Chinese yuan because the Federal Reserve has eroded the value of the U.S. currency.

The Chinese currency, known as the renminbi, or yuan, is "the best currency to buy right now," Rogers said. "I don't see how one can really lose on the renminbi in the next decade or so. It's gotta go. It's gotta triple. It's gotta quadruple."

The yuan strengthened past 7.5 to the dollar today for the first [time] since the central bank ended a fixed exchange rate in July 2005. The currency has gained 10.5 percent since the dollar link was abandoned.

Rogers also is buying Swiss francs and Japanese yen, which he said have been "pounded down" because of the so-called carry trades. "

– Bloomberg


=============


And these guys have a well-deserved reputation for being correct and being early. Oh-oh.

Buffet and Rogers are two of my heros and well worth paying close attention to. Thanks for the posts.

Another guy that I would add is Marty Whitman of the Third Avenue Funds. He generally thought of as a deep value guy and his shareholder letters are well-written and informative.

I have money in his funds and then have made money buying stock directly in some of his larger holdings.

The two that I have the biggest positions are St Joe (Joe) and Tejon Ranch (TRC). Similar stories in each. The value of the companies is in unlocking the value of their extensive land holdings. St. Joe is concentrated in the panhandle of Florida - the land used to be forests to supply its paper mills - but much of it is suitable to growing houses. Tejon is north of Los Angeles and has been mostly used for agriculture but large parts of it are suitable for growing houses as well.
 
On CFC I'm making 100% on my investment for each dollar it drops below $15. Their numbers are due this Friday. Wouldn't surprise me to see them go bankrupt at some point. Shall we see runs on a US bank as we did in the Great Depression? Could be. There was a run on a major UK bank recently. History repeats.

Even if it doesn't get that bad, why would anyone in their right mind be banking with Countrywide right now? Because they're not thinking, that's why. Too busy watching schlockbusters on a big screen TV, all paid for on credit of course. Invalid Link Removed Why are pensions invested in this garbage (or any stocks) and people don't care until they've lost it all? How will that affect their credit ratings and debt ratio? Invalid Link Removed

:)

Great Depression? Runs on banks? :hiding:

Accounts at Countrywide are insured by the FDIC. As long as you stay below the limit - $100,000 - you'll get your money back. If they have to pay higher rates because of their current troubles and you stay below $100,000 that strikes me as a pretty smart move.

That said - I hate subprime lenders and the rating agencies that gave bonds backed by poorly underwritten loans investment grade ratings and the investors that bought those bonds that provided the fuel for this insanity. May they all rot in hell.

That said - Countrywide is doing something smart by having NACA do the restructuring of these loans. That way we'll eventually know what the actual value of the paper is. Just because people can't afford the resets to 10-12% or higher doesn't mean that they can't pay 7-9%. Again, I hope the short works out for you; but be careful out there.

This is primarily a housing policy blog (the best one out there IMHO - David Smith is a highly respected practitioner); but if anyone is interested in the subprime mess, his thoughts are useful

Invalid Link Removed
 
I understand that your intent with posting the excerpts from the bearish newsletters is to focus on the macro level.

Factual newsletters, not "bearish". Facts of what has happened before written by people who've lived through it and done the math based on reality rather than a desire to sucker people into buying.


... You are making moves based on this effect being large; I think that it is not as large an effect as you think; ...

The effect won't be large, it'll be much bigger than large.

Invalid Link Removed

[/quote]

Thanks for the link. Countrywide is in much deeper trouble than they let on, and even if your money is insured (we'll see if the FDIC ever really needs to get tapped what happens and how much a dollar is really worth by then) it's too much of a hassle to even risk having to go that route. Zero excuse for pensions, or anyone, to be "invested" in it at this point unless they're perhaps short.

Thanks for the good wishes. I've been shorting Countrywide successfully for over a year and it'll keep paying off. Friday's bounce was incredible, and fuelled by the naive IMO. If it keeps rising, I'll just keep adding puts. With options, I can't lose more than I put in and I'll make sure I can't lose in aggregate on that one.

As for paying 7-9%, I doubt many of those borrowers can even pay 3% going forward. And why would they even bother when their houses are now "worth" almost half what they're paying loans on, and dropping fast? They're better off walking away. And they will when at some point they finally get hip and do the math. They should have walked away instead of "buying" in the first place, but better late than never. Those are, after all, the banks' houses and not theirs. It's going to get really ugly.

FYI, my infrastructure ideas are a different thing than my housing/lending sector ideas. Meaning I wouldn't short housing due to infrastructure issues. I would consider the infrastructure as part of the value of homes in that area though. Another thing that has yet to be factored into housing prices, or taxes.

Cheers.
 
One thing I have been noticing lately (besides the obvious homes reports, soon to be "lack of homes report") is something that most people don't even bother to think about- it may fall under your "infrastructure" category, as I'm not entirely sure where you're headed with infrastructure- is the one thing that is vital to life on our planet...water. There are signs of "water wars" happening in the west (CA,NV,AZ,OR,UT), the southeast (FL,GA,AL fighting it out over water) and even internationally (Texas vs Mexico). What I am wondering is how to go about investing in this field. I don't know who makes pipe, but the infrastructure is failing in some of these areas, and failing fast. Desalinization plants (one in Tampa puts out 152 million gallons a day, less than a third of that city's need) are coming online, water treatment facilities are trying to "recycle" grey water, it's all up in the air. My prediction? Water will become the next oil.
 
One thing I have been noticing lately (besides the obvious homes reports, soon to be "lack of homes report") is something that most people don't even bother to think about- it may fall under your "infrastructure" category, as I'm not entirely sure where you're headed with infrastructure- is the one thing that is vital to life on our planet...water. There are signs of "water wars" happening in the west (CA,NV,AZ,OR,UT), the southeast (FL,GA,AL fighting it out over water) and even internationally (Texas vs Mexico). What I am wondering is how to go about investing in this field. I don't know who makes pipe, but the infrastructure is failing in some of these areas, and failing fast. Desalinization plants (one in Tampa puts out 152 million gallons a day, less than a third of that city's need) are coming online, water treatment facilities are trying to "recycle" grey water, it's all up in the air. My prediction? Water will become the next oil.

That's brilliant thinking ! And I couldn't agree more. It's exactly the kind of thinking I hope a thread like this encourages. People look around or watch the news (well, preferably they have a better source than tv news) and start to see potential trends to beware of and profit from. One mortage company going broke then another. One story about water shortages, then a water war. One overpass collapse, then another, then a bridge. Patterns emerge.

Most can't be bothered to look back at what's happened or ahead at what's coming. Too busy watching tv? How else can we explain people being totally shocked when they lose everything in a flood ... despite the fact that they live on a flood plain that floods totally every 20 years or so ... then finding out they have no insurance? I feel sympathy on every level for people who suffer such events. I know tragedy can stike any of us at any time and I count my blessings hourly. Don't get me wrong on that. I don't think they have it coming or anything of the sort. I do think that they exemplify wilfull ignorance though. Some disasters aren't exactly random, and you can see those coming a long way off.

Speaking of which, I've been into water plays for a couple years now. Like you, I think it's a sector that'll catch on in coming years but there's already a "stealth" bull market in water-related stocks.

Start by checking these out - http://www.nwpipe.com/ , Invalid Link Removed , http://www.picoholdings.com/

As for my thinking on infrastructure, it's pretty simple. Infrastructure is crumbling, bridges are collapsing and dozens more have the same problems that St. Louis bridge did and need repair along with schools, water mains, sewage systems, overpasses, etc. All grossly neglected for decades and if not premptively repaired soon will need to be worked on as they fall apart (read the US Army Corp. of Engineers reports on these matters).

Problem is that this couldn't come at a worse time as either taxes will have to be raised to pay for it all, thus squeezing homeowners even more, and/or massive amounts of more dollars will have to be printed thus weaking the currency further and raising inflation thus squeezing everyone more. Probably both, but when they don't have water and feces is flowing down Main St. and into the river then the work can't be put off any longer. Factor also the natural disaster clean-ups not yet completed from Katrina and now California is added to the bill.

So, your idea in re: water pipe makers/installers covers both these ideas to some degree - water and infrastructure. Very smart, IMO.
 
Thanks, but I don't think it's all THAT brilliant...it was just a few articles I have seen and followed up on with a modicum of research. Part of the problem with people being tele-hypnotized is just that- they get too caught up in the Machiavellian machinations of the US media. Try to look at other news sources as well- even ones that don't necessarily agree with your personal opinion or worldview. If it makes you uncomfortable hearing from other parts of the world, you just might be learning something!

Stupidity is refusing to think on your own, and thinking was banned in most schools somewhere in the mid-80s, I think. So they no longer encourage independent thought in the US (which might account for our precipitous drop in educational ratings), but instead encourage people to form their own opinions based solely on the disinformation they are fed. Whoever has the information gets to control who gets it.

Another thing that disturbs me is that people in the US are so distracted by the media plying them with the latest junk gossip crap that, when asked who the the Secretary of the Treasury for the US is, 9 out of 10 people that I have personally asked-
A) Don't know,
B) Don't care,
C) Fail to see how this affects them on a day-to-day basis.

Another thing that speaks volumes about disinformation is that most people that I talk to have already decided who they will vote for next year, but cannot tell me why they will vote for them. Even sadder are the many that tell me they will no longer vote because it doesn't matter anyway. People here in the US are overwhelmed by the flood of information and disinformation, and are sadly lacking in the ability to discern one from the other. They are unable to form cohesive thoughts about any number of vitally important issues of our time. I try to look for patterns emerging, or at least trends (not the fashion kind, either). While most people I know believe that CNN is the only news forum in the entire world (see, that "Desert Storm" and "Shock and Awww" really WERE good for something!), I am as likely to read Al Jazeera as the NY Times, or the BBC as well as the LA Times, just to gauge how others in the world might be seeing us and our actions, as well as getting a heads-up on geo-political frictions. I do not trust any single source implicitly, every one (even financial papers or blogs, or maybe it should be especially financial publications!) has a slant to it. Checking out and cross-referencing sources has no meaning to the general public; as long as they don't have to think, they'll accept whatever the pablum of the day is.

BTW- my earlier quote of 150 million gallons of water a day was off- it is closer to 90,000 cubic meters, with another 37,000 cubic meters a day coming online soon. Also, think about the corrosive properties of seawater...what material would be a good thing to make parts from? Something that doesn't easily corrode in saltwater, and is ductile enough to be formed into the necessary parts to build a desalination plant? Answer to this question will be given in another post! :D
 
Stocks-
Buy low sell high

Dont listen to TV & Radio guys who push a stock they usually have an interest in it and want to raise the price so they can get out of it as soon as it goes up a little. Then it dive bombs and you loose money!

Buy companies you know something about- do research to see where the company is heading.

Mutual funds can be good, but again do the homework, Look for no load, tax free funds (don't charge you fees or you have to pay taxes on them every year)
Have your stocks re-invest themselves.

Keep an eye on any tech stock you buy everyday!

They can have huge highs and lows- it's a roller coaster ride not for the faint of heart.
 
Joe and Jane can feel great about it all they want. Ignorance is bliss, it is often said. But in general they are absolutely not making an informed decision or an investment that will pay off.

As for doing the math on that investment, yours reads like typical real estate sales math to me. No offense, but IMO & IME it's very incomplete and misleading, though I don't suggest that was deliberate on your part. Where is all the interest they paid in those 7 years during which they only gained $26k in principal? Where is the lost opportunity cost? Property taxes for 7 years? Taxes on the "profit"? Costs of ownership over 7 years? All stuff that's never mentioned in the "buy now before it's too late !!!" fax blasts to media by the realty association, or by the self-imagined real estate tycoons at the office water cooler.

http://www.consumerismcommentary.com/2007/03/15/the-cost-of-buying-a-home-over-30-years/

"By the way, if you plan on moving within 7 years like the average homeowner, renting and investing the funds you would have otherwise used for a down payment would be a better financial decision. Not only that, but with a long-term mortgage in which you’re paying almost exclusively interest to the bank on your mortgage, you’re just renting your house from the bank. And you still have to pay all the maintenance costs, taxes, and everything else outlined in the chart above."


In those 7 years, at only a 6% interest rate, they'd be paying more in interest alone on such a huge loan than they'd make in "profit" on selling after those 7 years. That's called renting, not owning. It's losing, not investing. And that's a best case "if" the price of the house goes up and that's a VERY big "if" assuming they bought in the past few years. And what if they need to move at an inopportune time, can't afford to pay, or get a divorce? Gotta factor some reality into the equation.


No offense taken.
By good feeling, I mean an intuitive expertise in real estate not warm and fuzzies.

Regarding the costs I am omitting - you need to live somewhere right? The numbers that you were quoting from don't account for the fact that you need to pay to live somewhere else. Your numbers also seem to be looking at return on sales price instead of the more accurate return on equity.

If you don't own then you pay rent and have everything paid by the rent (except sometimes utilities that you may have to pay directly). I would agree that folks sometimes buy more house than they should and that in hot markets they may be paying a bigger "investment premium" if you will than at other times. But the typical analysis that a person makes is that I am paying $x to rent this place and it would cost me $x+y to buy my own place. If y is not too big compared to whatever additonal benefits that buying their own place gives; then folks buy.

To use my own house as an example; with a fixed rate mortgage I locked in approximately 85% of my cost (interest payment) at 1996 prices and 15% of my cost (insurance, property taxes) will go up over time. In either case, rent or buy, I am on the hook for utilities which vary. If you rent, 100% of your housing cost varies as the rental market varies. A 3% inflation on 15% of my cost means what - 1/2 of 1% inflation per year on my living costs. If you want to throw utilities and maintenance on that - now we talking roughly 25% of my living costs - still less than 1% a year overall. You would need one helluva flat rental market (for me going on 11 years) to match that.
 
No offense taken.
By good feeling, I mean an intuitive expertise in real estate not warm and fuzzies.

I understood that. My point stands that most Joes and Janes have no idea what they're doing, especially these days, when purchasing real estate. See my news excerpts and links above for some proof. Most don't even hire a building inspector to look the place over. That's laughable. They have anything but an intuitive expertise in anything other than shackling themselves to bad deals at terrible prices.


Regarding the costs I am omitting - you need to live somewhere right? The numbers that you were quoting from don't account for the fact that you need to pay to live somewhere else. Your numbers also seem to be looking at return on sales price instead of the more accurate return on equity.

I was looking at return on equity. Problem is there is none. The equity is effectively negative since they paid more in interest than they have gained in equity over those 7 years. The net result is less than zero. A loss. A very bad "investment". Then there's taxes, maintenance, risk, applying inflation calculations to their supposed gain on the sale, and the very real possiblity the price of their house will actually go down, perhaps very significantly, in dollar terms and certainly in real terms.

Yes, you have to live somewhere but that's a different set of calculations. You can't mix the two, but you can do them separately and compare. Everyone is different though so it's tough.

Will the owners in your example come out ahead of most renters? On average, in 7 years with that much interest costs? Possibly not. See my link in my last post to you. http://www.consumerismcommentary.com/2007/03/15/the-cost-of-buying-a-home-over-30-years/

But maybe the "owners" will come out ahead of the renters, and arguably that is a relative gain and a good investment. No argument there. A penny saved is indeed a penny earned. However once you factor the risk they're taking on and all the time and costs spent on upkeeping a home (time is money), the stress of the tasks and payments, and that along with the price bubble bursting is far too much risk for very little potential relative return IMO.

It all comes down to how much is put as a downpayment, then the opportunity cost has to be factored. Again, it's complicated. Much more so than the math that realtors/brokers offer. An example such as yours, if shown to most people, will result in "great, where do I sign !!!" rather than a reasoned response. That's what go us into this mess.

Ultimately we can disagree on the minutea of all this and make examples of ourselves all day long, but it only underscores my main point - there are no easy "real estate is a good invetment because it always goes up and everyone comes out ahead" answers in the real world. History doesn't bear that out. People would know that if they took as much time to research their housing/lifetime of debt purchases as they do their next MP3 player or bass.

Most don't take the time or do the math, ergo what responsbile people like you and me do doesn't really matter in the grand scheme if the folly of the majority - or even simply a significant enough minority - is causing the house prices on our block to crash, and the cost of our debt to rise to make up for the losses the banks took on the irresponsible peoples' defaults, and the prices we pay for food, gas, basses, etc. go up due to a crashing dollar because the gov't has to borrow more from overseas and print more money to bail out a bunch of banks and pensions funds that invested in those bad mortgages.

In that light, we're all in it together at the macro level.

Or they may simply cause Home Depot's and Lowe's and MBIA's and Countrywide's and US Airway's earnings to go down so the stocks crash so we can make great profits on shorting those companys. Maybe in the selloff panic some good regional banks that have no mortgage exposure get sold off too so we can buy them cheaply. That much has happened already, at least in my case, so it isn't theory or personal opinion or something that varies by region. And it brings us full-circle to the central theme of the thread which is how to profit from what's going on.

IMO.

A fine bit of hypocrisy and irony to close off this post -