Behringer poll..

[BassIan]

Okay, I guess my math was backwards then. Sorry about that.

Just FYI you can run 300 watts of clean power through a 200 watt cab all day long and it probably won't hurt it. It's when you run 200 watts from a 200 watt amp through a 600 watt cab that you have problems. As mentioned before, RMS handling specs from one manufacturer to another don't mean a heck of a lot.

This is really off. 300 watts continuous will overheat the voice coil whether it comes from a 200 watt amplifier (severely overdriven), a 300 watt amplifier, or a 600+ watt amplifier. This is very different from using a 600 watt amplifier with a 300 watt cabinet, since a 600 watt amplifier doesn't supply 600 watts all day long while you play bass.

Please explain to me how 300 watts will not damage a 200 watt cabinet but 200 watts will damage a 600 watt cabinet using sound physical/thermodynamic principles.

I do agree completely with your last sentence.

 

[Scott in Dallas]

Please explain to me how 300 watts will not damage a 200 watt cabinet but 200 watts will damage a 600 watt cabinet using sound physical/thermodynamic principles.

I do agree completely with your last sentence.

Sorry, but the logic is very sound. Here's why:

Because a 300 watt amplifier not being overdriven isn't putting out a constant 300 watts, while a 200 watt amp in overdrive might be, due to distortion it introduces into the waveform, resulting in thermal failure of the voice coil in the speaker.

Does that mean that if you feed a sinewave into a 200 watt cab with a constant clean 300 watts you aren't going to blow it? Doubtful. But no amount of playing bass is going to feed constant power into the speaker. The extra power is headroom for transients, whch speaker cabinets are designed to handle. Another reason RMS power ratings aren't very reliable.

A power amp cranked to the gills is not producing clean power, especially a cheap one. A bigger power amp not cranked is producing clean power, even in transient peaks.

 

[Scott in Dallas]

Topsy turvy
Running 300w into a 200w cabinet may blow it. That's why the cab is rated 200w. It handles 200w, not 300w.

Nope. That's a common mistake. See my explanation above.

 

[daffy]

When I bought my Behringer rig I looked at:
BA210 and BA410
BB210, BB410 and BB115

I didnt' like the bright, tinny sound of the alum cones and I have also seen Hartkes and Behringers with the cones separating so I ruled them out, more on sound than reliability but that was in the back of my mind.

I then tried the 210 and the 115, both together and separately. I liked the punch of the 210 but the low end dropped out pretty hard and it just didn't seem to have any balls right down low. The 115 had lots of grunt but not as much definition and for funk playing I wanted a tighter sound. I also found the 115 was not as loud when I was up close but very loud further away from the cab. It was as if the 115 focussed its sound about 20 feet from the cab - this made it hard to figure out my volume when standing by the cab. I couldn't hear it well up close but it was blowing other people in the shop away.

Both together sounded nice, but still a little muddy for me.

Then I tried the BB410 and loved it. Warm and tight but with lots of bass extension. Only thing is that it's bigger and heavier than the others by a big margin.

I think if I went buying again I would look for a 212 perhaps, or would try out second hand 210's in other brands. Not that I don't like the Behringer, it has been a fantastic buy and is going strong after 2 years of constant gigging. I would just like something a little more compact and lighweight without losing tone or low end.

I have heard a mate's MarkBass amp and cab and it sounds lovely, and I also like the SWR 410 cabs, which seemed smaller and lighter.

 

[Foamy]

I don't have a problem with Behringer in general. I just remember th eweight of the BA115 I used to own. Ugh!!!!!
Now I carry around a 210 with Neo drivers. That in one hand, and the Markbass in the other. Good to go!
But again, the build quality of the Behringer was fine, and so was the sound. No complaints at all.
As far as the aluminium speakers go, I think it was the glue in the earlier models that was really the problem. I don't think there are really any problems with the current gear for the past year or so.

 

[BassIan]

Sorry, but the logic is very sound. Here's why:

Because a 300 watt amplifier not being overdriven isn't putting out a constant 300 watts, while a 200 watt amp in overdrive might be, due to distortion it introduces into the waveform, resulting in thermal failure of the voice coil in the speaker.

Does that mean that if you feed a sinewave into a 200 watt cab with a constant clean 300 watts you aren't going to blow it? Doubtful. But no amount of playing bass is going to feed constant power into the speaker. The extra power is headroom for transients, whch speaker cabinets are designed to handle. Another reason RMS power ratings aren't very reliable.

A power amp cranked to the gills is not producing clean power, especially a cheap one. A bigger power amp not cranked is producing clean power, even in transient peaks.

I completely agree here - you've expressed yourself much more clearly.

The generalization you made previously was definitely not saying the same thing. In particular, you say running 200W out of a 200W amplifier (at this point you will get some clipping and distortion, but hopefully not audibly if the amplifier is worth its weight) will be harmful to a 600 watt speaker. Unless the speaker is in a poorly designed enclosure and suffers severely from overexcursion, you should have no problem even if that poor 200W amp gets driven into the ground.

There's a difference that has to be made clear between saying "running 300W into a 200W cabinet will blow it" and "using a 300W amp with a 200W cabinet will blow it." In the former case, a 300W continuous signal will likely cause thermal (or mechanical depending on frequency content) failure of a 200W driver. However, in the latter case, as long as your 300W amplifier and 200W driver are making enough volume for the gig, you will not have a problem because your average power will be WELL below 300, even 200 watts.

 

[CraigG]

Behringer is OK... until you have to get it repaired (and, if you use it seriously, your chances are VERY good that you will end up having to get it repaired).

 

[Foamy]

Behringer is OK... until you have to get it repaired (and, if you use it seriously, your chances are VERY good that you will end up having to get it repaired).

Please let us know your experience with repairing Behringer equipment. What was the equipment, and what did it take to get it repaired? Was it under warranty? What is considered "seriously" using it?
Thanks!

 

[Scott in Dallas]

In particular, you say running 200W out of a 200W amplifier (at this point you will get some clipping and distortion, but hopefully not audibly if the amplifier is worth its weight) will be harmful to a 600 watt speaker. Unless the speaker is in a poorly designed enclosure and suffers severely from overexcursion, you should have no problem even if that poor 200W amp gets driven into the ground.

We are almost completely in agreement. But I'm offering real-world advice here. There are things that take WAY too long to explain that don't really mean much of anything outside of theory, so my explanations seem overly-simplistic. I'm also not an engineer, so my explanation probably sucks. There isn't anything below that I haven't proven firsthand with my own equipment bought with my own money.

If you buy a 200 watt power amp made to deliver 200 watts cleanly with the master turned to 10, you'll never burn up a speaker designed to take 200 watts, even if you feed it a sine wave. I'm with you on that point.

Here's the problem:

Almost nobody makes amplifiers like that, especially entry-level amplifiers for guys on a budget, who look at ratings in order to match equipment together. Using your example, if you buy a budget solid-state 200 watt power amp and turn it all the way up, you are feeding a clipped waveform and therefore electricity into your 600 watt speaker's voice coil. The fact that it's a big heavy 600 watt voice coil doesn't mean it's immune to the damage, it just means it's going to take longer to burn through. As you mentioned earlier, it's not mechanical failure that kills the speaker, it's thermal failure, as the electricity going to the voice coil is converted to heat rather than to mechanical energy.

Since the distorted waveform is probably asymetrical, it burns the voice coil from the edges rather than burning straight through, which a clean waveform would do. The distorted signal is almost constant where the clean waveform is only where the music is. It therefore takes significantly less power to cook the voice coil if there's distortion than it does if the waveform is clean.

 

[joegeezer]

Well....... so far you guys have all gotten it wrong. He is asking about the BB series cabs, not the BA series cabs. BAs are the aluminum ones, BBs are the paper cone cabs. I'd go for the 15 inch cab. Good Luck!!

 

[Scott in Dallas]

Well....... so far you guys have all gotten it wrong. He is asking about the BB series cabs, not the BA series cabs. BAs are the aluminum ones, BBs are the paper cone cabs. I'd go for the 15 inch cab. Good Luck!!

The OP mentioned aluminum cones, and why he was choosing the BB series, which prompted the discussion about aluminum.

 

[Scott in Dallas]

Please let us know your experience with repairing Behringer equipment. What was the equipment, and what did it take to get it repaired? Was it under warranty? What is considered "seriously" using it?
Thanks!

Good question. I've been seeing a lot of unsolicited Behringer bashing on this forum lately by guys who don't have any Behringer equipment listed in their profiles.

 

[joegeezer]

The OP mentioned aluminum cones, and why he was choosing the BB series, which prompted the discussion about aluminum.

Sorry, I was just scanning , and missed that part.


I have owned three Behringer heads, a 300, then a 450, and another 300. I liked the sound of the first 300, then bought a different brand. Then bought a 450 as a backup, and didn't like the 450, it sounded like it was, a strained 300, in some way. then I picked up another 300, as a backup to my Eden, and just to have around the house as a practice head. The 300 is a better sounding head to me, than the 450. Unless I got a bad one? Always worked though. I've never had any of the 3 die on me.

 

[daffy]

Well....... so far you guys have all gotten it wrong. He is asking about the BB series cabs, not the BA series cabs. BAs are the aluminum ones, BBs are the paper cone cabs. I'd go for the 15 inch cab. Good Luck!!

I talked about my evaluation of both types, and that I ended up settliing on a BB410. BB210 was closest to my ideal but not enough bottom end extension. 115 had the low but was too muddy, not punchy enough and seemed to throw the sound far out in front so it was hard to hear up close and too loud at a distance

Oh and I got the BX4500H head as well - very happy with both.

 

[CraigG]

Please let us know your experience with repairing Behringer equipment. What was the equipment, and what did it take to get it repaired? Was it under warranty? What is considered "seriously" using it?
Thanks!

Would you consider the validity of my comments since they are based on those of an individual who used to work at one of the few Behringer service centers in the eastern US? Even though, at the time of our discussion, he was working for a major music retailer who sold, among other brands, Behringer, he could not recommend Behringer because of his knowledge of the hassles of getting Behringer equipment repaired (and, no, he wasn't trying to sell me something else because I wasn't shopping... we were simply discussing the brand). Authorized repairs apparently had to be sent out to this particular service center and could not be done at a local level. That sounds like a lot of hassle to me.

I do have one piece of Behringer equipment, a headphone distribution amp. It has worked OK. However, the general reviews that I have read of various pieces of Behringer equipment, particularly in recording forums, is that the brand's quality control is often hit or miss.

As for "serious use" I would consider that, at the very least, regular gigging. Personally, based on what I know of Behringer equipment, I would be very hesitant to tour with it if I were still touring. BTW, I'm not trying to bash Behringer as some may think. Just trying to share what I have read based on user reviews and my own conversations with someone who knows the brand. Consider it research findings. You don't need to own something to know about it.

 

[Scott in Dallas]

As for "serious use" I would consider that, at the very least, regular gigging. Personally, based on what I know of Behringer equipment, I would be very hesitant to tour with it if I were still touring.

Excellent point. The nice thing about some of the Beheringer stuff is that you can literally afford to have a second one as a backup.

 

[Foamy]

Good question. I've been seeing a lot of unsolicited Behringer bashing on this forum lately by guys who don't have any Behringer equipment listed in their profiles.

Likewise, hence the question. I did check so I could try and see what gear may have been the topic of the review which was given.
I own Behringer gear and have not had any gear that needed repairing - that's why I am curious. Thanks!

 

[Scott in Dallas]

Likewise, hence the question. I did check so I could try and see what gear may have been the topic of the review which was given.
I own Behringer gear and have not had any gear that needed repairing - that's why I am curious. Thanks!

Yup. While it's certianly worth noting that there are potential problems with Behringer's quality and service, it seems like it's hammered into every discussion. They should change the name of the company to "caveat emptor" and get it over with.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Topsy turvy
Running 300w into a 200w cabinet may blow it.

Running 300w into a 200w cab would blow it, but the average 200w cab won't take more than 100w before farting out anyway, and most won't take that much, so you'd get plenty of warning if you were pushing it too hard.

Since the distorted waveform is probably asymetrical, it burns the voice coil from the edges rather than burning straight through, which a clean waveform would do. The distorted signal is almost constant where the clean waveform is only where the music is. It therefore takes significantly less power to cook the voice coil if there's distortion than it does if the waveform is clean.

That's a common assumption, but not an accurate one. Guitar players routinely run highly clipped waveforms into drivers that have nowhere near the durability capabilities of bass drivers, with no damage.

While it's certianly worth noting that there are potential problems with Behringer's quality and service, it seems like it's hammered into every discussion

Behringer is as good as anything else in the same price range when it comes to the electronics aspect. That's because all manufacturers use pretty much the same circuits and components. Where Behringer seems to have problems is with hardware- volume controls, switches, handles, and of course drivers. They just don't use high grade parts.

 

[Scott in Dallas]

That's a common assumption, but not an accurate one. Guitar players routinely run highly clipped waveforms into drivers that have nowhere near the durability capabilities of bass drivers, with no damage.

I must not be understanding what you are saying.

Since we are talking about solid state amps, are you saying that a transistor circuit specifically designed to simulate vacuum tube distortion from a mid-frequency instrument (guitar), and then multiplied (cleanly) to run through a driver (specifically designed to break up), creates the same demands and damage as a cheap power amplifier being pushed beyond its design limits at very low frequencies to speakers designed to move in a linear fashion, regardless of the size of the voice coil?