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Best and worst business advice?

In an effort to learn how to market our original rock band and move beyond the pay-to-play level, I am paying an experienced band manager for some advice. I had thought I was pretty clear in my initial emails that although we’re a new band, we’re not complete noobs, just that we want some help in consolidating the vast sea of advice and opinion out there to form a solid business and marketing plan. Seems I wasn’t clear enough, perhaps.

Her first reply, upon checking out some of our material, was that our style is “dated,” and isn’t what’s selling right now. She then sent a lengthier note, outlining how the industry works:

Style is important for success. You should identify who your clients are. Certainly, the people at your shows are clients. But what about the venue operators, aren’t they clients also? If they don’t like you, do the audiences ever get to see you? I call this the Gatekeepers and the End Users.

It is the same in the recording industry. There are Gatekeepers such as the labels, the radio stations, and the critics. Then there are the End Users which are the people who actually buy music. You can not get to the End Users in any significant numbers without being accepted by the Gatekeepers. That is where style comes in.

If you do not fit the perceived style requirements of the Gatekeepers, the End Users will never know that you exist. Labels try to structure their product (recordings) to appeal to radio first as they can not get anywhere without radio. The cost of marketing is very high and every time a 4 minute song is played on the radio it is like purchasing 4 minutes of commercials on a radio station. In the real world that would cost you in the neighborhood of $600 or much more for a major city station. Multiply that by hundreds of plays across the country and you begin to see why radio is so important.

Radio stations are broken down into five categories: Rock, CHR, AC, Country and nonmusic. The music charts are also done on that basis with some sub-divisions depending on who is creating the chart, Hot AC, New Country, Rhythmic, etc. are some of the subdivisions. These divisions are called formats. They are very tightly programmed on rigid lines and if you don’t fit, you don’t get on. In Canada many of the rock stations have become gold, so there is a limited market.


Sigh… Reading between the lines, I’m hearing another “Rock is dead” message. Really? How come it’s all over our local alternative station, then? How come bands like Foo Fighters are selling out stadiums all over the world? However, I’m not going to waste my money trying to have that debate with her. She has her experience and is entitled to her opinion. That’s not what we’re paying her for, anyway. Our music, dated or not, comes from our hearts and we’re not going to magically morph into another genre (even if we could) and try to follow a trend that may be gone tomorrow. Following trends never works, IMO.

Today, as we all know, new artists have to create their own following, build their own popularity. In most cases, the so-called Gatekeepers will promote anything they think they can make a buck from, regardless of style. If a band is popular, if they’re selling out clubs and creating buzz, the Gatekeepers will be all over it. So my questions back to her were about the best ways to develop a band and build a following in order to be of interest to the Gatekeepers down the road. (I should add that we’re not interested in working with major labels, but we do see the merit of working toward radio coverage and press, and we’d be very happy to work with an indie label. In the meantime, we’re in production on our first album, which is DIY and going very well so far.)

I’d love to hear your opinions of what she wrote. Also wondering what business advice you guys have received throughout your careers that was helpful – and what was not! I have read Tom’s thread on "How to Succeed as an Original Band," but thought it might be fun to share gripes and successes in a less formal way.
 
I think she gave you a generic "Music Business 101" lecture that you could have gotten for 15 or 20 bucks out of a book from your local Barnes & Noble (or equivalent), so I hope you aren't paying her too much.

Not knowing what your band sounds like, maybe you're dated, maybe not. If she's right, is there any way you can "update" your sound without really changing too much who you are as a band? Stuff like using different gear/sounds could help. Maybe change the arrangements a bit. Don't lose your identity, and don't try to use the "new hot thing" (ie autotune, etc...). That is the stuff that makes you sound dated down the road. Who will think of any time but the 80s when they hear gated reverb on drums? In 10-20 years, autotune (as an example) is going to sound even more tacky in most cases than it does now.

If she's wrong and you guys aren't dated, then she's probably not very tuned in artistically. She may still be able to do her job without that, but it sounds like her knowledge isn't that extensive anyway, or she is just being patronizing until she sorts out the band's level of knowledge on this stuff.

My gut feeling is you don't really need this person helping you and could probably do about as well by reading a few books and starting to read some trade magazines that deal with the technical/business side of music. Stuff like Mix, EQ, Sound on Sound, etc... Those are mostly focused on recording and live sound, but they often have more business oriented articles as well, and I'm sure there are other similar magazines I'm forgetting at the moment.

Educate yourself, and then when you hit the limit of the band's collective abilities, you can hire someone with more specific goals in mind, which will be cheaper, easier to attain, and easier to measure when you've reached success.
 
Sounds like she has an ideology that she believes in whole heartedly.

Whose to say that the "end users" aren't what starts the cycle, as opposed to her belief in the "gatekeepers" being the initiators?

Imo its more complex than she makes it out to be, with the "gatekeepers" and "end users" in an interdependent relationship, not an independent relationship as she supposes.

I don't generally like following someone whose idea of the world is rigid, but that's just me :D

Good luck with your band!
 
I agree with the style thing. I get a lot of hate from some musicians with how much my band focuses on how we are dressed. I look at it this way, if you want to be taken seriously in the business world, you wear a suit.
In a band you mostly have to make sure everybody looks like they belong together. Try to avoid having one person look dressy and another guy in gym shorts and a sleeveless shirt. You dont have to wear the same thing, just...... togetherness

I'm not sure what style you play so I can't call it dated our not, but personally bands like Foo Fighters play what I consider good old fashion rock. It may be modernized a bit but its still just rock. I think that music is timeless.

Labels are pretty much over glorified investment bankers. They want to put money into a project and then see a return. I feel that the best way to get signed is to not worry about labels and try to make money on your own. If they see you making money, then they get interested. Then its a decision if you want to take that route or not
 
I think she gave you a generic "Music Business 101" lecture that you could have gotten for 15 or 20 bucks out of a book from your local Barnes & Noble (or equivalent), so I hope you aren't paying her too much.

Not knowing what your band sounds like, maybe you're dated, maybe not. If she's right, is there any way you can "update" your sound without really changing too much who you are as a band? Stuff like using different gear/sounds could help. Maybe change the arrangements a bit. Don't lose your identity, and don't try to use the "new hot thing" (ie autotune, etc...). That is the stuff that makes you sound dated down the road. Who will think of any time but the 80s when they hear gated reverb on drums? In 10-20 years, autotune (as an example) is going to sound even more tacky in most cases than it does now.

If she's wrong and you guys aren't dated, then she's probably not very tuned in artistically. She may still be able to do her job without that, but it sounds like her knowledge isn't that extensive anyway, or she is just being patronizing until she sorts out the band's level of knowledge on this stuff.

My gut feeling is you don't really need this person helping you and could probably do about as well by reading a few books and starting to read some trade magazines that deal with the technical/business side of music. Stuff like Mix, EQ, Sound on Sound, etc... Those are mostly focused on recording and live sound, but they often have more business oriented articles as well, and I'm sure there are other similar magazines I'm forgetting at the moment.

Educate yourself, and then when you hit the limit of the band's collective abilities, you can hire someone with more specific goals in mind, which will be cheaper, easier to attain, and easier to measure when you've reached success.

No, it's not much money, so no worries there. I just wanted someone to help me consolidate the massive amounts of information out there. I do a TON of reading and research, and I have a background in film & TV both as a performer and a crew member. So I definitely have a solid grasp on how the business works, and I thought I'd been pretty clear with her about that up front. I've just never tried to market a band before and I wanted some help from someone who has developed bands from scratch. I want a step by step plan to follow so that I can carve out more time for writing and personal practice and spend a bit less time trying to figure out the marketing. There is still some money left over from my initial deposit, so I'm hoping she'll be able to answer some of the specific questions I posed to her (again) after receiving her email. Your gut feeling may be right on. I may end up doing it all myself yet. But after years in the movie biz, I'm a firm believer in not doing all the work myself if I can pay someone more experienced than myself to do it. We shall see if that will work in this situation.
 
Sounds like she has an ideology that she believes in whole heartedly.

Whose to say that the "end users" aren't what starts the cycle, as opposed to her belief in the "gatekeepers" being the initiators?

Imo its more complex than she makes it out to be, with the "gatekeepers" and "end users" in an interdependent relationship, not an independent relationship as she supposes.

I don't generally like following someone whose idea of the world is rigid, but that's just me :D

Good luck with your band!

Thanks! I totally agree with you. She's been in the biz a long time and it's possible she may be in an old mindset. I see it as an inter-dependent relationship, too, with the gatekeepers cashing in on whatever becomes popular among end users. If a band becomes popular enough, the gatekeepers simply can't ignore that or they'd be out of business. So the challenge as independent artists is to figure out the best bang for our buck in terms of getting the material out there and building a following. If no one likes your material, you'll know soon enough. But in most cases, the right exposure creates the market, IMO.
 
She's not necessarily wrong or right.

The originals band trying to make it is probably the toughest nut to crack in the business.

How old are you guys?

Well, Blue, considering the numerous times I've ticked you off for your rants about how original bands are only for young people, I figure you should know by now that we're not kids. We know full well how difficult it is, and we're fully prepared to do the leg work to get to where we want to go. We're not looking to become the next U2. We're just looking to create a following for our music. And I don't think anything she said was wrong, per se, just that it wasn't the information I had asked for.
 
I agree with the style thing. I get a lot of hate from some musicians with how much my band focuses on how we are dressed. I look at it this way, if you want to be taken seriously in the business world, you wear a suit.
In a band you mostly have to make sure everybody looks like they belong together. Try to avoid having one person look dressy and another guy in gym shorts and a sleeveless shirt. You dont have to wear the same thing, just...... togetherness

I'm not sure what style you play so I can't call it dated our not, but personally bands like Foo Fighters play what I consider good old fashion rock. It may be modernized a bit but its still just rock. I think that music is timeless.

Labels are pretty much over glorified investment bankers. They want to put money into a project and then see a return. I feel that the best way to get signed is to not worry about labels and try to make money on your own. If they see you making money, then they get interested. Then its a decision if you want to take that route or not

To clarify, her remarks on style were about musical style, not our appearance. We definitely believe in making an effort to coordinate when dressing for the stage, even if it's just basic black for the guys. You actually get hate from musicians about the way you guys present yourselves? Man, what is wrong with people?

The whole "dated" thing surprised me, to be honest. I suppose if that's the only criticism she can make, we're not doing too bad. My fellow band members are all seasoned pros, and we work hard on our arrangements and on being as tight as possible. It's possible that her opinion was influenced by the fact that we have no pro-quality recordings out there yet, just a bad demo (long story) and a bunch of practice tapes. I have since sent her a couple of rough mixes from the album we're working on. If that doesn't change her opinion, no problem. We'll just stick to the business questions I have.

I love the Foo Fighters and although our sound is not like theirs, we consider ourselves to be your basic rock band, too. I do believe there is, and will always be, a market for rock, and I can't understand the tremendous investment so many industry types have in wanting to kill it off. I guess the ROI isn't worth it for them. Oh, well. Good thing we can run our own careers today!

Major labels are exactly like bankers and we have zero interest in working with them. If by some miracle we achieve a level of success where one of them became interested in us, I'd opt for what Dave Grohl does, and license the material to them for distribution, rather than sign with them. We're launching our own label in order to release our first album, but we remain open to the idea of working with an indie label. We'll just have to see how things go.
 
Theres a couple hundred channels on XM with very different music. Overall the music industry is struggle to figure out how to sell records. Selling 3 million is huge these days. Its a new world with iTunes and the ability for garage bands to create a studio quality recording with low cost tools. The record companies are filled with 50+ year olds (like me) who cling to the ideas of the 80s. The industry needs a shot of 25 year old marketing people who think out of the box. The beer companies have figured that out. The solution is not there yet and the industry will need to be reengineered before the change happens.

It may be a tough but marketing yourself is likely the answer at least until you are discovered. A lot of big bands pull in local talent for openers. Talk to your local civic center that may need to find an opening act. Play at the local Pigfest or state fair where large crowds gather. There are online booking agents to register with. If you can get a local following, that will hellp a lot. I used to go on Friday nights to the local club and see this local band called Twisted Sister. Eventually they hit it big. Read Dee Snyders new book who explains how it was done.
 
Following trends never works, IMO.

So how's that working?

Don't take this the wrong way, but following trends always works, and it's waaaaay easier than succeeding on your own. Where she hears "dated" music, it might be just as easy to say, "This doesn't fit any current trends."

To her, it's the same thing - she can't get it past the gatekeepers.

In my (limited) experience, you're going to run into lots of experts who have trouble putting their underpants on before their pants. They're going to exude confidence and criticize the heck out of your band, music, and style. But no matter what, they are powerless to actually make your band popular. They might get you more visibility, but they cannot force people to like you. You need to listen to everything they say and filter it for BS yourself.

Beware anyone who is an expert at successfully managing popular rock bands, yet for some reason needs to find another rock band to manage.
 
The best piece of advise is something I just got recently. I has to do with appearance.

People hear with their eyes as well as ears.

So how do you apply that? That varies with where you want to go. You gotta differentiate yourselves in some way: Pay attention to details. Get a look. Shave. Have a neat stage. Have all your mic stands the same color (chrome, black, red, duct tape, whatever...) Cover the road case wheels. If you're playing classic rock, don't look like you work in management at IBM.

Details. Make it look like THIS is the show your band has been waiting to play all year!!!!!

You can believe that only the music matters, but for most of the people that listen to you, it's a full sensory entertainment package (the smell of a girlfriend's perfume because she got dressed up that night, the taste of a beer, the chicken wings were not hot, the lighting of a stage, the feel of the seat, the crinked neck because they sat in a booth and had trouble seeing the stage, the way the mic stands didn't match, the bass player wearing a polo shirt while playing Led Zepplin covers...). You get the idea.

To be an outstanding band, you have to BE an outstanding band. Details won't always get you there, but it makes the destination much more likely.
 
I’d love to hear your opinions of what she wrote.

It was a great idea to solicit the advice of a professional manager. But the fact that she talked down to you may just boil down to two things: Either...

1) You didn't communicate with enough precision and specificity the kind of feedback you wanted..
OR
2) She already told you everything she knows about the business - in which case, you picked the wrong consultant.

As for "dated" material, while I don't know exactly the genre(s) you're into, take one look at Lenny Kravitz - playing "neo" classic rock...in the Nineties and Aughts: Platform boots? Power riffing? Synchronized "head bobbing"? Really? :eyebrow:

And it went over like crazy. Huge success. Wonder how many industry pros had been warning Lenny that his concept was "dated". :rolleyes:

Just goes to show you that oft-times, people in the industry are the WORST ones to ask. All they know is their little formulas, their rules and structures. They'll be the first to tell you what you can't do...and the first to take credit for you when you succeed anyway.

My suggestion: Go indie all the way. Create your own opportunities. Create your own following. Create it all, by yourself. Create a buzz amongst the "end users", and the "gatekeepers" will come flocking...

MM
 
Don't take this the wrong way, but following trends always works, and it's waaaaay easier than succeeding on your own.
Following trends works great for cover bands and I'm all for it, but for originals bands I'm not so sure. I don't know if you can try to play what's trendy and popular today and succeed. By the time you master the style and get a bit of name recognition it'll no longer be marketable. You gotta start playing what will be popular two years from now. Of course nobody knows that, so you might as well play what you like and hope it's popular two years from now, but...

How likely is it for a new, young rock band to break into the business on any significant level, though? Granted, looking at the 25 top-grossing tours of last year I was surprised at how much rock there was, but it was nearly all classic rock bands that have been around for well over a decade... Foo Fighters, Bon Jovi, U2, Journey. The only rock band that got popular after the year 2000 might be Kings Of Leon. All the other recent names on that list are pop and hip-hop.
My suggestion: Go indie all the way. Create your own opportunities. Create your own following. Create it all, by yourself. Create a buzz amongst the "end users", and the "gatekeepers" will come flocking...
Exactly. I'd say gatekeepers are less and less relevant for recorded music. Labels, radio stations, and big websites will want to deal with you once you've built up enough popularity of your own. At most you can pay some smaller blogs around $50 to run posts about your videos (at least in the hip-hop world, I don't know if the equivalent exists in rock). Reviews and interviews are close to completely irrelevant now.
 
It was a great idea to solicit the advice of a professional manager. But the fact that she talked down to you may just boil down to two things: Either...

1) You didn't communicate with enough precision and specificity the kind of feedback you wanted..
OR
2) She already told you everything she knows about the business - in which case, you picked the wrong consultant.

As for "dated" material, while I don't know exactly the genre(s) you're into, take one look at Lenny Kravitz - playing "neo" classic rock...in the Nineties and Aughts: Platform boots? Power riffing? Synchronized "head bobbing"? Really? :eyebrow:

And it went over like crazy. Huge success. Wonder how many industry pros had been warning Lenny that his concept was "dated". :rolleyes:

Just goes to show you that oft-times, people in the industry are the WORST ones to ask. All they know is their little formulas, their rules and structures. They'll be the first to tell you what you can't do...and the first to take credit for you when you succeed anyway.

My suggestion: Go indie all the way. Create your own opportunities. Create your own following. Create it all, by yourself. Create a buzz amongst the "end users", and the "gatekeepers" will come flocking...

MM

Thanks, Michael. Agreed on all points. I thought I could save myself some time by having a "pro" map out some of the initial steps for me, but if I have to figure it out myself, I certainly will. In some ways, even if it's not helpful to our current situation, it's good to get a reading on how folks like her think. While the industry is most definitely in flux, there still seems to be that old school of thought following that old formula. It's good to know they're still out there. When we cross paths them, we'll have a better sense of how to handle them.
 
The whole "dated" thing surprised me, to be honest. I suppose if that's the only criticism she can make, we're not doing too bad. My fellow band members are all seasoned pros, and we work hard on our arrangements and on being as tight as possible. It's possible that her opinion was influenced by the fact that we have no pro-quality recordings out there yet, just a bad demo (long story) and a bunch of practice tapes...

That's a problem right there. You're talking about how you guys want to be successful and only put your best foot forward, and yet you sent her sub-par recordings which show your band in not the best light. Of course she's going to respond the way she did. You only have one chance to make a first impression and you screwed up by not making it the best one possible.

You can say your band is composed of nothing but the most seasoned pros who work hard on being tight and sounding great, but when your own recordings don't reflect that then a manager in her position is not going to take you as seriously as you might of wanted her to. That, and don't forget that she probably gets emails from 'pros' all the time.

This isn't me trying to rag on you, btw, so please don't take this as a personal attack. This is just me reading what you've said and giving you some perspective.