Best and worst business advice?

[TBrett]

Following trends works great for cover bands and I'm all for it, but for originals bands I'm not so sure. I don't know if you can try to play what's trendy and popular today and succeed. By the time you master the style and get a bit of name recognition it'll no longer be marketable. You gotta start playing what will be popular two years from now. Of course nobody knows that, so you might as well play what you like and hope it's popular two years from now, but...

How likely is it for a new, young rock band to break into the business on any significant level, though? Granted, looking at the 25 top-grossing tours of last year I was surprised at how much rock there was, but it was nearly all classic rock bands that have been around for well over a decade... Foo Fighters, Bon Jovi, U2, Journey. The only rock band that got popular after the year 2000 might be Kings Of Leon. All the other recent names on that list are pop and hip-hop.

Exactly. I'd say gatekeepers are less and less relevant for recorded music. Labels, radio stations, and big websites will want to deal with you once you've built up enough popularity of your own. At most you can pay some smaller blogs around $50 to run posts about your videos (at least in the hip-hop world, I don't know if the equivalent exists in rock). Reviews and interviews are close to completely irrelevant now.

Spot on. If you're trying to create original music to suit what's popular now, it will almost certainly not be popular by the time you get your product out to the marketplace. Same with movies, novels, visual art, etc. I believe you have to create the trend yourself through consistent exposure and marketing. If you're able to achieve a certain level of popularity on your own, that's when you can avail yourself of the gatekeepers' infrastructure, which can take an act to a higher level of exposure. Seems to me that's how the artists who are popular now got to where they are. No guarantees, of course. But then, that's all part of the fun!

Breaking through to those higher levels as a rock band sounds very difficult, indeed. Right now, I'm just focusing on building a following in our immediate area so we can play shows without having to worry about the draw so much. That's a ton of work right there. But I have to say, when a total stranger tells us how much they enjoyed our show, it's a huge thrill. Whatever we go on to achieve, even if we don't ever get known beyond our neck of the woods, I never want to lose appreciation for moments like that.

 

[TBrett]

Theres a couple hundred channels on XM with very different music. Overall the music industry is struggle to figure out how to sell records. Selling 3 million is huge these days. Its a new world with iTunes and the ability for garage bands to create a studio quality recording with low cost tools. The record companies are filled with 50+ year olds (like me) who cling to the ideas of the 80s. The industry needs a shot of 25 year old marketing people who think out of the box. The beer companies have figured that out. The solution is not there yet and the industry will need to be reengineered before the change happens.

It may be a tough but marketing yourself is likely the answer at least until you are discovered. A lot of big bands pull in local talent for openers. Talk to your local civic center that may need to find an opening act. Play at the local Pigfest or state fair where large crowds gather. There are online booking agents to register with. If you can get a local following, that will hellp a lot. I used to go on Friday nights to the local club and see this local band called Twisted Sister. Eventually they hit it big. Read Dee Snyders new book who explains how it was done.

I'll definitely pick up Snyders' book - thanks for the recommendation. I'm a rock bio addict! Just finished Pat Benatar's book (dear god, what the label did to her and the band was just awful). Duff McKagan's book was great, too - especially when he talks about the painstaking work that GNR did to build their fan base in LA, where it was all pay-to-play. Different era, but in fact, not much seems to have changed on that level.

It's both a great and difficult time to join the industry, it seems. Great because with the internet, we now have more ways to get our music out to the world. Difficult because you're so right that the industry needs some re-engineering. Right now, it's a bit of a quagmire. It will be very interesting to see what happens over the next decade. Personally, I'd be thrilled if we could sell 3 million albums. That is huge for an indie band. As I've often said to the guys, we may not make millions, but I'd be very happy if we each made a comfortable living from our music. I don't mean that to sound like I'm selling us short or that I'm prepared to settle for whatever I can get. Just that I think we have to be realistic. It's important to enjoy your everyday life, too. I'm sure we've all known folks who did very well with their respective art forms, but who were miserable because they weren't on the same level as this artist or that. Sad.

 

[TBrett]

The best piece of advise is something I just got recently. I has to do with appearance.

People hear with their eyes as well as ears.

So how do you apply that? That varies with where you want to go. You gotta differentiate yourselves in some way: Pay attention to details. Get a look. Shave. Have a neat stage. Have all your mic stands the same color (chrome, black, red, duct tape, whatever...) Cover the road case wheels. If you're playing classic rock, don't look like you work in management at IBM.

Details. Make it look like THIS is the show your band has been waiting to play all year!!!!!

You can believe that only the music matters, but for most of the people that listen to you, it's a full sensory entertainment package (the smell of a girlfriend's perfume because she got dressed up that night, the taste of a beer, the chicken wings were not hot, the lighting of a stage, the feel of the seat, the crinked neck because they sat in a booth and had trouble seeing the stage, the way the mic stands didn't match, the bass player wearing a polo shirt while playing Led Zepplin covers...). You get the idea.

To be an outstanding band, you have to BE an outstanding band. Details won't always get you there, but it makes the destination much more likely.

Brilliant! I mentioned previously that we take care to look like we're a band, but you know what? I've been avoiding developing our image on stage. It's another thing I've never done before and I've been putting it off.

So while we work very hard on getting the material tight and polished, and incorporating simple choreography to ensure everyone can be seen, etc., we have done very little to develop a visual image that will hold an audience's attention. As the frontwoman, I'm a strong singer and performer. I move, I groove, I shake my booty. But I know that's not enough. This is the perfect time to start working on this, so thanks very much for the prod!

 

[lfmn16]

Yes, I did, thanks (including Tom's very informative thread). I've been an active participant in this forum for several years. Just wanted to share what's been happening because I really value everyone's opinions here.

Good idea. Although it's a good to read what has already been written, new threads give people who haven't commented a chance to share their experiences.

 

[TBrett]

Just want to say thanks to everyone for your feedback. I don't mean to repeat the excellent threads that have been stickied. But there's been some great advice here and I will definitely follow it! Always happy to receive any further thoughts that comes to mind.

 

[TBrett]

That's a problem right there. You're talking about how you guys want to be successful and only put your best foot forward, and yet you sent her sub-par recordings which show your band in not the best light. Of course she's going to respond the way she did. You only have one chance to make a first impression and you screwed up by not making it the best one possible.

You can say your band is composed of nothing but the most seasoned pros who work hard on being tight and sounding great, but when your own recordings don't reflect that then a manager in her position is not going to take you as seriously as you might of wanted her to. That, and don't forget that she probably gets emails from 'pros' all the time.

This isn't me trying to rag on you, btw, so please don't take this as a personal attack. This is just me reading what you've said and giving you some perspective.

Sorry, I somehow missed your post the first time around. You're right. In my eagerness to get some help, I blew it. There I was, asking for business advice, saying I'm not a complete noob, while providing an overall impression of being exactly that. Dang!

I probably should have waited until the material was ready. I had just hoped to save some time by getting advice earlier in the process so that when the material is ready, we'd be more polished, closer to being ready to go out there and make that all important first impression. But without that material, what was I really expecting? Didn't think it all the way through. Ah, well. Lesson learned. Hopefully she can take pity on my confused state and give me some steps to follow in the short term. I can put up with looking like a complete idiot if I can learn from it. I just hope I haven't permanently shot myself in the foot!

Thankfully, I now have a clearer sense of what to do from all the feedback in this thread!

 

[wonderjosh]

What are your goals beyond getting more local paying gigs? I took a quick listen to your band's music, and your sound is rather dated, as your consultant mentioned. There is a small niche for that on the bar scene, although it seems that most bands playing that style are playing covers. I personally don't see an originals band playing that kind of music being able generate sizable following, at least not without having some unique twist on the original formula, and an absolutely killer live show.

 

[lowendfriend]

Remember the somewhat cynical definition of a consultant:

Someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time...

....and then keeps your watch.

 

[bluewine]

Well, Blue, considering the numerous times I've ticked you off for your rants about how original bands are only for young people, I figure you should know by now that we're not kids. We know full well how difficult it is, and we're fully prepared to do the leg work to get to where we want to go. We're not looking to become the next U2. We're just looking to create a following for our music. And I don't think anything she said was wrong, per se, just that it wasn't the information I had asked for.

Then it's tough, sounds like you're where I was at last year. Older guys in a great originals band.

At the end of the day we could not figure out a way to generate any interest in or enough demand for what we had to offer.

Hopefully you guys can do better than we did. We tried the internet route as well as several bogus management groups that were worthless.

Now I'm with a blues rock act not half as good as the originals band and were booked solid and we have fans that come to every gig. Keep in mind this was all developed before I joined. So it was more or less a "turn key" opportunity for me.

 

[JohnMCA72]

Her know-how is about 20 years dated....

I was going to say, it sounds like she's referring to the "old" model...

 

[JohnMCA72]

The best piece of advise is something I just got recently. I has to do with appearance.

People hear with their eyes as well as ears.

So how do you apply that? That varies with where you want to go. You gotta differentiate yourselves in some way: Pay attention to details. Get a look. Shave. Have a neat stage. Have all your mic stands the same color (chrome, black, red, duct tape, whatever...) Cover the road case wheels. If you're playing classic rock, don't look like you work in management at IBM.

Details. Make it look like THIS is the show your band has been waiting to play all year!!!!!

You can believe that only the music matters, but for most of the people that listen to you, it's a full sensory entertainment package (the smell of a girlfriend's perfume because she got dressed up that night, the taste of a beer, the chicken wings were not hot, the lighting of a stage, the feel of the seat, the crinked neck because they sat in a booth and had trouble seeing the stage, the way the mic stands didn't match, the bass player wearing a polo shirt while playing Led Zepplin covers...). You get the idea.

To be an outstanding band, you have to BE an outstanding band. Details won't always get you there, but it makes the destination much more likely.

This is excellent, & applies to a lot of topics besides just this one!

 

[ksandvik]

I was going to say, it sounds like she's referring to the "old" model...

The gate-keeping has moved from the radio DJs and record label A&R screeners to the general public.

 

[TBrett]

Then it's tough, sounds like you're where I was at last year. Older guys in a great originals band.

At the end of the day we could not figure out a way to generate any interest in or enough demand for what we had to offer.

Hopefully you guys can do better than we did. We tried the internet route as well as several bogus management groups that were worthless.

Now I'm with a blues rock act not half as good as the originals band and were booked solid and we have fans that come to every gig. Keep in mind this was all developed before I joined. So it was more or less a "turn key" opportunity for me.

I'm up to speed with what you're doing - and very pleased for you that the blues band is working out, by the way! The original route is tough. No question. But we're having a hell of a lot of fun. If I have to do all the work myself, so be it. It won't be boring, that's for sure!

 

[bluewine]

I'm up to speed with what you're doing - and very pleased for you that the blues band is working out, by the way! The original route is tough. No question. But we're having a hell of a lot of fun. If I have to do all the work myself, so be it. It won't be boring, that's for sure!

Well sounds like you have the right spirit and drive. I wish you luck in moving your band forward.

 

[TBrett]

What are your goals beyond getting more local paying gigs? I took a quick listen to your band's music, and your sound is rather dated, as your consultant mentioned. There is a small niche for that on the bar scene, although it seems that most bands playing that style are playing covers. I personally don't see an originals band playing that kind of music being able generate sizable following, at least not without having some unique twist on the original formula, and an absolutely killer live show.

Thanks for your comments. Can you be more specific about what you mean by dated? Do you think the quality of the recordings and the fact that they weren't produced in any way might have something to do with it? Or is it that the style sounds too much like classic rock, or something like that? Any specifics you can think of would be most helpful.

As for our goals, we'd like to keep building a following over time and eventually grow beyond local gigs to regional and onwards. Obviously, we may have trouble doing that if the general reaction is that our sound is dated.

 

[wonderjosh]

Thanks for your comments. Can you be more specific about what you mean by dated? Do you think the quality of the recordings and the fact that they weren't produced in any way might have something to do with it? Or is it that the style sounds too much like classic rock, or something like that? Any specifics you can think of would be most helpful.

As for our goals, we'd like to keep building a following over time and eventually grow beyond local gigs to regional and onwards. Obviously, we may have trouble doing that if the general reaction is that our sound is dated.

Yeah, it's very reminiscent of 70's and 80's hard rock. It's done pretty well, but to me it's just not bringing anything new to the table that would have a wide enough appeal to build a regional/national fan base. I think you'll be just fine playing locally and being able to score the occasional out of town gig, but beyond that I dunno...

If you guys are having fun, and like what you're playing, that's all that matters. Keep rocking out, and keep trying to build the band's following, but be sure to keep expectations in line with reality.

The demos were completely fine by the way. It was obviously not a professional recording, but they were totally adequate for demos to give to venues or let people hear what you sound like on your website. Honestly, they were quite a bit better than a LOT of the demos I've heard before.

This is all just my opinion of course, and I'm not a professional in any sense, so definitely take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[TBrett]

Yeah, it's very reminiscent of 70's and 80's hard rock. It's done pretty well, but to me it's just not bringing anything new to the table that would have a wide enough appeal to build a regional/national fan base. I think you'll be just fine playing locally and being able to score the occasional out of town gig, but beyond that I dunno...

If you guys are having fun, and like what you're playing, that's all that matters. Keep rocking out, and keep trying to build the band's following, but be sure to keep expectations in line with reality.

The demos were completely fine by the way. It was obviously not a professional recording, but they were totally adequate for demos to give to venues or let people hear what you sound like on your website. Honestly, they were quite a bit better than a LOT of the demos I've heard before.

This is all just my opinion of course, and I'm not a professional in any sense, so definitely take what I say with a grain of salt.

Thanks for your post. Really like your material, by the way! I'd love to hear where you're at, too.

As for the whole dated thing, yeah, hmmmm, indeed. I dunno, either. We'll just have to see what the market will bear. Much of the feedback we get is from folks both younger and older who are thrilled to hear this kind of sound. Seems like there's a lot of rock fans out there who are forced to cling to a limited amount of material because not many artists are composing in this vein today. Whether there are enough of 'em to form a solid fan base remains to be seen.

That said, we did not deliberately set out to create this kind of retro style. It was just what came out when we all started composing together. Now our challenge is figuring out how to position it.

If you can think of aspects we can alter to make the material sound more current, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts. Obviously, we have to remain true to who we are as a band, but that is not to say we can't refine things along the way.

 

[pklima]

Do you know anybody who does electronic music or hip-hop beats that sound commercial? Can you talk them into remixing one of your songs, just so you can see what it would sound like in that style?

My singer-guitarist recorded a song at my house a couple of months ago. I made a joke "dance remix" by replacing the drums with an electro-style loop, and making a sparse funky guitar loop out of four measures of the busy rhythm guitar part. The bass and cavaquinho (sort of a steel-string ukulele) were already built from loops. I sent it to him, and he somehow decided he likes it better. Go figure. He still doesn't want to throw blatant autotune and massive compression on the vocals, though...

 

[ForSix]

After reading that woman's advice, it appeared to me to be a cut and paste blurb she sends someone to tell him she's not interested.

You're better off doing your own analyzing of your market and writing your own market plan.

 

[TBrett]

After reading that woman's advice, it appeared to me to be a cut and paste blurb she sends someone to tell him she's not interested.

You're better off doing your own analyzing of your market and writing your own market plan.

Bear in mind that I'm merely paying her for some business advice, we're not trying to get in with her company. She and I had several emails back and forth before she sent what I posted here. We got sidetracked with the whole musical style and what's selling thing. The advice I was seeking will follow.

And yeah, we'll continue our own analysis and marketing. We don't have a choice on that front.