Best and worst business advice?

[Jason P Bass]

Following trends works great for cover bands and I'm all for it, but for originals bands I'm not so sure. I don't know if you can try to play what's trendy and popular today and succeed. By the time you master the style and get a bit of name recognition it'll no longer be marketable. You gotta start playing what will be popular two years from now. Of course nobody knows that, so you might as well play what you like and hope it's popular two years from now, but...

How likely is it for a new, young rock band to break into the business on any significant level, though? Granted, looking at the 25 top-grossing tours of last year I was surprised at how much rock there was, but it was nearly all classic rock bands that have been around for well over a decade... Foo Fighters, Bon Jovi, U2, Journey. The only rock band that got popular after the year 2000 might be Kings Of Leon. All the other recent names on that list are pop and hip-hop.

Please don't take this the wrong way, because I mean it constructively, but if I had a dime for every "undiscovered" rock band who scrapped a plan because it's not what a $100M/year rock band does...

You and I wish we had the problems that U2 and Bon Jovi has.

The idea that "once you get your name out there, you'll no longer be marketable" is silly. You and I WISH we had this problem. (BTW, U2 reinvents themselves just as much as Madonna, who rode the coattails of Nicki Minaj, MIA, Cee Lo, AND an acrobat at the superbowl halftime show.)

You need to sell out your own local shows like clockwork. If you can't get it done locally on your own, then you're just one more band that can't draw a crowd. It doesn't matter how special or unique or artistic your music is. If you can't get 50 people to your show, the business stinks. The art might be phenomenal, but the business stinks. There's no money to pay an agent or a manager or a PR team if you can't sell out like clockwork.

So step 1) You must hit critical mass on your current level. If you want to do this with your own unique brand of trend setting music, be my guest. I think you'll do better by ripping off MUSE, The Black Keys, TV on the Radio, Vampire Weekend, or any other current, trendy band. (Remember, we're trying to be a commercial success. Critics can choke on poison.) ANYTHING is fair game. Strippers on stage, body painting, raffle prizes, throwing knives, magic tricks, charity events, dunk tanks, free CDs, human sacrifice, ANYTHING to sell tickets. GET AN ACROBAT ON STAGE, that's what Madonna did.

Step 2) make it stupid for promoters at the next level to ignore you.

Step 3) Repeat. Reinventing yourself will be required.

Most bands never reach a critical mass on the local level. They're too busy making special, artistic music and can't be bothered to sell out their shows. You must work at this EVERY DAY, and work harder than the next band.

Did you call the local college radio station today and tell them about your next gig? Did you invite someone from the local paper to your next show? Did you book studio time on your own dime to record your next single? Did you write a new song? Did you finish a song? Did you practice your stage show? Did you buy new clothes to wear? Did you design new graphics? Did you post on facebook about your next gig? Did you record a video of your band hanging out being funny and post it online? Did you send your CD to a website for review? Did you go busking? Did you tell a stranger about your band? Did you order fliers for your next show?

If you want to sell out your shows like clockwork, you have to work harder than the next band. The other guys are doing all of these things. Every day that passes by without doing this stuff for yourself isn't merely a lost opportunity, it is a set back.

 

[DaDrew2112]

Jason P...absolutely! Successful bands aren't for fun. The fun part is getting onstage and actually playing your songs for crowds. Everything else leading up to that is work. That's so difficult for people to comprehend. My singer tells me "only the music matters" and I lol hard. Shattering someone's paradigms in order to make them realize you reap what you sow is damn near impossible sometimes.

 

[TigerInATrance]

So, I'm sort of in the same place. The difference is that I've got an album that's a month or so away from being distributable and have just finished putting together the plan. First and foremost, I've got to put together a band that can play the stuff live. Not the easiest thing, but very manageable since I've had some good interest throughout the recording process.

The marketing is not the easiest thing. The plan, as it stands now, is to give away the recordings to anyone who will take it. In fact, the plan is to make no money selling the album or tracks beyond the publishing. The good thing here is that the album was made for free. I did it Prince style. The bad thing will be that there will be an outlay to get the live shows happening. You have to spend money to make money. You can play sets at showcases until you die and it won't do a damned thing for you. My plan is aggressive and is definitely a gamble.

I'm putting my money up to do a localish tour. It'll probably be about 8 shows at theater/amphitheater type places that feature a few bands "opening" for us. These will be popular cover bands that live within our idiom and can bring in bodies. They will all get the album at the door. I've actually designed a trippy multimedia experience/lightshow that's gonna cost...

Well, I don't want to bore anyone with a detailed plan, but you see what I'm getting at. Without a benefactor, someone will have to lay out the cash to get things moving. Advertising isn't cheap and it's the only way to get any sort of anything going. This is like starting up a small business only there is more of a gamble here and ultimately you will be the one risking your cash because there really isn't anywhere to play and get noticed by someone with deep pockets anymore.

Oh, yeah, and get someone else to advise you. The chick you hired said the same thing to you, almost to the letter, that the manager we hired in my first band back in the early 90s said. None of it is relevant today, especially the idea that traditional radio will do anything for a rock band trying to get out there. College radio... Sort of... Maybe....

 

[pklima]

Please don't take this the wrong way, because I mean it constructively, but if I had a dime for every "undiscovered" rock band who scrapped a plan because it's not what a $100M/year rock band does...

Tbh I don't disagree with you much. I'm all for being trendy and commercial even in a small-time cover band that has no use for wider success. I just think that to break into real mainstream success with originals you have to be even more trendy than the current trends, if that makes sense. That makes the endeavor even more difficult and prospects even more daunting.

 

[TBrett]

How are trends created? Think about this. Aren't they created by artists who have achieved a certain level of popularity? Doesn't that popularity often begin in their local region, which is then expanded to a regional level and so on? If we all simply followed the trend of what's out there now, everything would sound the same, wouldn't it?

 

[Clef_de_fa]

By doing the mainstream route your just selling your soul to the devil. When you try to have a crowd, a folllowing that will look at you in a bar you aren't better musician you are just better at selling yourself.

Doing so, one day, really talented people will desapear because you only need to have the popular look and sound ... nothing unique, just what sells. No musical talent involved because you only need to look good.

So ... if you want to be a rock star and doign so you buy the mainstream look, autotune music and a big team of marketing ... and you work more on the marketing aspect than acutally becoming better at music ... to me you aren't musician or bass player or whatever you are just a saleclerk.

It will always surprise me to see people more intrested in giging and make money than actually be good and working to be better at their instrument.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

How are trends created? Think about this. Aren't they created by artists who have achieved a certain level of popularity? Doesn't that popularity often begin in their local region, which is then expanded to a regional level and so on? If we all simply followed the trend of what's out there now, everything would sound the same, wouldn't it?

Not quite, because everyone has their own take on things. From the beginning of popular music with Mozart and up until (probably about the 60's) it was VERY common for songs to be released by one artist and then re-arranged, re-structured, and re-recorded by another artist. It wasn't just a cover but a complete reinterpretation of the same song.

People will always follow trends and do what's popular, but what makes them different is their own interpretation of what's currently there. That's how new trends come about. It's taken what is currently happening, or has already happened, and adding your own spin to it. Sometimes it catches on. Sometimes it doesn't. But if you want it to catch on then make sure you market it as the best new thing and make people believe it.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

By doing the mainstream route your just selling your soul to the devil. When you try to have a crowd, a folllowing that will look at you in a bar you aren't better musician you are just better at selling yourself.

Doing so, one day, really talented people will desapear because you only need to have the popular look and sound ... nothing unique, just what sells. No musical talent involved because you only need to look good.

So ... if you want to be a rock star and doign so you buy the mainstream look, autotune music and a big team of marketing ... and you work more on the marketing aspect than acutally becoming better at music ... to me you aren't musician or bass player or whatever you are just a saleclerk.

It will always surprise me to see people more intrested in giging and make money than actually be good and working to be better at their instrument.

I disagree.

The Beatles are THE pinnacle example of how a band should behave. Play what's popular and build your fan base, and once you've made your millions start playing the kind of music that you actually want to play in the comfort of all your riches. Once you have money you can practice all you want and not have to worry about anything else. Try doing that by taking the starving artist route and having to work bus boy jobs just to get by.

 

[mikegug]

How are trends created? Think about this. Aren't they created by artists who have achieved a certain level of popularity? Doesn't that popularity often begin in their local region, which is then expanded to a regional level and so on? If we all simply followed the trend of what's out there now, everything would sound the same, wouldn't it?

Everything doesn't sound the same, because the music evolves.

Blues > Rock and Roll > Classic Rock > Punk Rock > Alternative Rock > etc...

This is not always linear per se as shown above, but a lot of us stand on the shoulders of those who went before us. We put our own twist on it and call it ours because it actually is to some degree.

Sometimes you have a musical genre "breakthrough", but what "new" thing is coming down the road that won't use a previous platform to some degree?

 

[Richland123]

Best advice I was given - "Don't give up your day job. It's very hard to make it big. Always have something to fall back on in case you need it."

Interestingly, that was normally the way it was for me. Have a steady, full time job with benefits while playing and trying to get to the next level. However, when I lost my job, I was so grateful that I had started another band about the same time and was able to fall back on playing as a source of income.

 

[HeadyVan Halen]

Greatest advice ever got:
"You don't get paid because your good. You get paid because people buy something your selling.."

Albums, tickets, shirts..etc

 

[pklima]

How are trends created? Think about this. Aren't they created by artists who have achieved a certain level of popularity? Doesn't that popularity often begin in their local region, which is then expanded to a regional level and so on? If we all simply followed the trend of what's out there now, everything would sound the same, wouldn't it?

Hard to say. Trends seem to work in mysterious ways. I mean, Adele is very trendy right now with her "serious artist" vocals, but did she create the trend, or did she just happen to be doing the right thing at the moment it was about to become popular with millions of people who were getting sort of bored of Lady Gaga? In other words, millions of random people set the trend, and the star really only followed them?

By doing the mainstream route your just selling your soul to the devil.

First I wondered why you're posting this in a thread on business advice. I mean, should I stroll into a thread about how to play interesting solos and announce that all musicians who solo are morally repugnant, self-indulgent, sanctimonious and doomed to a life of frustration? I mean, I guess I could...

Then I remembered that the thread is also about "worst business advice", which means your post is perfect.

 

[ksandvik]

It's very interesting watching the VH1 documentaries of famous bands and artist. One thread that seems to go through the discovery of these artists is that they were at the right place at the right time when a specific movement started, like post-punk in N.Y and Blondie. Plus at least one of the band members had 'rock charisma.'

Today with internet you can't really nail down a specific location, anyone could start a trend from any place on this planet using Internet. So it's more of timing and having the rock star charisma.

 

[TBrett]

This just in: the consultant emailed to say she's doing some research (at no charge) before she provides analysis of the song we propose to release as the first single (I sent her a rough mix of the recently recorded version), compared to what the market is buying. This ought to be interesting. Will post the results when when I receive them.

 

[TBrett]

Then I remembered that the thread is also about "worst business advice", which means your post is perfect.

Hahahaha!

 

[mambo4]

I am paying an experienced band manager for some advice... I’d love to hear your opinions of what she wrote.

I think she gave you the advice of an experienced, professional band manager. Managers can't make money off of bands that haven't already achieved a preliminary level of success. She considered your band, and thought you weren't at that level yet. She wants a band she can sell to the 'gatekeepers' she is used to dealing with, and tried to describe what that might look like.

Also wondering what business advice you guys have received throughout your careers that was helpful – and what was not!

Until you can reliably draw at any local venue, It's all about who you know. Get involved in your local scene, whatever it is, at every possible level: fans, other bands, weekly rags, bookers,promoters, venue owners, studios. Become involved in your local scene and help out whenver possible. If you don't know who those venue/ weely rags/bands/ people are, you need to find out and make some new friends.

 

[TBrett]

... She considered your band, and thought you weren't at that level yet. She wants a band she can sell to the 'gatekeepers' she is used to dealing with, and tried to describe what that might look like.

Wondering if you got the impression we were applying for representation with her company. We weren't. There is absolutely no question that we're not at that level yet, and this was mutually understood when she and I entered into our arrangement.

Until you can reliably draw at any local venue, It's all about who you know. Get involved in your local scene, whatever it is, at every possible level: fans, other bands, weekly rags, bookers,promoters, venue owners, studios. Become involved in your local scene and help out whenver possible. If you don't know who those venue/ weely rags/bands/ people are, you need to find out and make some new friends.

In what ways do/did you help out in your area? After reading your thread about producing your album, it sounds like you guys have long since figured out a lot of the stuff I'm trying to learn now.

I have a reasonable knowledge of who's who in our city and I always network whenever possible and keep my ear to ground to learn more. But if there are ways I can and should get more involved in the scene when we're not playing, I'm there. When we have a show, I poster, send press releases, tell everyone I know, network online, send messages to the local blogs, anything I can think of. But it's very difficult when we're so new (with limited funds) and in such a highly competitive music scene. Someone recently posted here about how their band has been producing their own shows, eventually getting to the point where they're bringing in touring acts to headline. That makes a lot of sense to me and I plan to start doing that as soon as our CD is ready - well, not the touring acts part to start off with, of course! But we could at least get together with other local bands and plan our own events. If you have any additional suggestions as to how we can build a following on a local level, I'd be most grateful to hear them!

 

[Jason P Bass]

Tbh I don't disagree with you much. I'm all for being trendy and commercial even in a small-time cover band that has no use for wider success. I just think that to break into real mainstream success with originals you have to be even more trendy than the current trends, if that makes sense. That makes the endeavor even more difficult and prospects even more daunting.

I agree strongly with the "right place, right time" concept. There is nothing specific about Adele that made her the Trendy Singer of Destiny. If she didn't exist (or wasn't in the right place at the right time) then someone else would fill the void and nobody would have ever heard of Adele.

With that in mind, you can't worry too much about crafting your indie band for worldwide success. All you can worry about is playing music that you don't hate, and selling out your local shows.

It's a known fact that you will have to reinvent yourself in order to have any longevity anyway, so don't worry about what's going to be trendy 2 years from now.

By the way, I was playing delta blues at 110 dB with a heavily distorted guitar in my mom's basement in 1997, and nobody cared. But when Jack White did the EXACT SAME THING 5 years later in Detroit, he became a millionaire. Right place, right time.

I was also playing Bob Dylan songs with a punk arrangement 15 years before My Chemical Romance did "Desolation Row".

One of these days, it's going to be me in the right place at the right time. I know it!

 

[Jason P Bass]

In what ways do/did you help out in your area? After reading your thread about producing your album, it sounds like you guys have long since figured out a lot of the stuff I'm trying to learn now.

I have a reasonable knowledge of who's who in our city and I always network whenever possible and keep my ear to ground to learn more. But if there are ways I can and should get more involved in the scene when we're not playing, I'm there. When we have a show, I poster, send press releases, tell everyone I know, network online, send messages to the local blogs, anything I can think of...

Telling people about your band is marketing, not networking.

Bringing other bands into shows you booked is networking, and it's WAY more beneficial than telling people about your shows. They bring fresh eyes & ears to see your show, they hopefully will return the favor, and the club views YOU as the more valuable partner who solves THEIR problem of finding quality bands who draw an audience.

I LOVE IT when I see a local indie band with a quality performance and a good crowd, that compares well with my band (as in, they're not doing the same thing as my band, only better ) Get their contact info and every time you book a show, ASK if they need another band. Tell them that if a band drops out, you have a band that can fill the slot. Do some work for the other band, and the rewards will multiply.

 

[mambo4]

Bringing other bands into shows you booked is networking, and it's WAY more beneficial than telling people about your shows.

Truth! Being involved with other bands is probably the best networking.

We have found is it's much easier to get a gig if you call the venue and say you have a complete bill -3 or 4 bands to fill the night. It takes a lot of work off their plate, the evening is booked an they can move on to the next thing. For a venue, filling your calender with acts takes a lot of work, so if you can pitch an evening long event package you put together with 3 bands and a puppet show or whatever, they usually will bite.

being on good terms with many bands increases your chances of being referred to when a band can't make a date they are asked to play, or when an event or collaboration project needs more peeps on board.

Having engineering gear and chops, and a bunch of engineering geek friends is another way to help out and build contacts with bands.

I have known bands whose members were also bookers for some of the more desirable venues , and they always managed to play those places too.

We have friends who are live sound guys, they get asked to run sound for a block party or a local bar and often need a band...

In fact flipping the question form "who would book us " to
"who will frequently need to book a band?" is a good way to generate ideas for who to help/network with.

(we also had a member briefly date someone who worked at the supportive local radio station, that led to useful info about who to drop our CD / 1 sheet on...)

As I said in my other thread, the idea is to maximize your exposure to opportunity. You wan to be on the minds of people who might need a band, or know of someone who might need a band.

Admittedly, it's a little distasteful to force yourself to schmooze. That's why I try to see it as seeking opportunities to help other folks out.