Beyma drivers

[Nook]

The "SM" series of Beyma is even cheaper than Eminence

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Beyma drivers are primarily PA oriented. Most of them don't have the rising midrange response typical of musical instrument drivers, making a dedicated midrange driver an absolute necessity IMO.
As far as quality goes I find them no better than Eminence. They may be perceived as higher quality due to their higher price, but their higher price is the result of their being imported. In Europe they don't cost more than Eminence because in Europe Eminence is the import.
The same comments apply to many other European drivers, including B&C, Precision Devices and Fane.

 

[Vic]

Beyma drivers are primarily PA oriented. Most of them don't have the rising midrange response typical of musical instrument drivers, making a dedicated midrange driver an absolute necessity IMO.
As far as quality goes I find them no better than Eminence. They may be perceived as higher quality due to their higher price, but their higher price is the result of their being imported. In Europe they don't cost more than Eminence because in Europe Eminence is the import.
The same comments apply to many other European drivers, including B&C, Precision Devices and Fane.

So Bill, would you generally recommend against Beyma drivers just as you did the Eminence Kappa Pro's for instrument amplification? As I recall, you had the same "primarily for PA" classification of those and were fairly critical of them as an instrument speaker (and I must say, I did not like them at all as a bass cab speaker either).

 

[Vic]

Any driver in any box will make a sound if you feed a signal strong enough to drive it, and you may even like it, but it does not lend the manufacturer any edge with regard to knowledgeable design. Certainly swapping drivers will change something and you may even like it, and describe it with lyrical prose, - it would be better to know what is happening.

I agree with this if we know that's all they're doing and that they have not done the research and resulting Beyma driver selection, and possibly even cab change, to make it a technically correct change.

As far as I've seen, we've not seen it verified that the "upgrade" does not include a modified cabinet, or at least careful Beyma driver selection to match the existing cab but provide some tonal benefits over the Eminence at the same time.

Have you?

I'm not challenging what you're saying from a technical standpoint, because, I agree with it, but I'm not sure if we know enough about what DR is or isn't doing to assume it's not a properly executed change. It seems to me as if you're suggesting it is.

 

[synaesthesia]

As far as I've seen, we've not seen it verified that the "upgrade" does not include a modified cabinet, or at least careful Beyma driver selection to match the existing cab but provide some tonal benefits over the Eminence at the same time.

Have you?

I'm not challenging what you're saying from a technical standpoint, because, I agree with it, but I'm not sure if we know enough about what DR is or isn't doing to assume it's not a properly executed change. It seems to me as if you're suggesting it is.

If it is indeed a physically different cabinet, then it is a different design. An 'upgrade' suggests a 1 to 1 swap of the driver component or the crossover components with the cabinet remaining physically the same. One of the posters above seems to suggest you could swap any of the three drivers, - woofer, mid range and HF driver, in any permutation you want, one two or three.

 

[Rickett Customs]

A bit OT, but another Hi-end driver would be 18sound.

 

[bgavin]

Are you talking about the Eminence Alpha 8MRA with a sealed basket? I don't care for the 8MRA free air response plot, so I prefer to subchamber one or two Alpha 6. I want to do a box with the Delta Pro 8B 8", but am having trouble buying them.

Bill horn loads the 8MRA in his Omni15 series, so the sealed basket is perfect for this use. The mid-horn is a quarter-wave device that fully loads the 8MRA above 450 Hz. Bill's crossover for the 8MRA is a custom bandpass type that works over the horn loaded operating range. His O15 chart is much more flat than the free air response of the 8MRA, so horn loading apparently smoothes the response.

I have not yet measured any Beymas, so I have no opinion on their off-axis performance other than the published charts. If off-axis is important, a smaller diameter driver is required. For example, a vertical pair of Alpha 6 offers better off-axis performance than the larger 8". The Alpha 6 is fully directional at 2700 Hz, compared to 2080 Hz for the 8". IMO, this is far more important for keyboard players than for bassists, because keys and synths have strong fundamentals in this range.

All of this is irrelevant if the cab is used with full PA support. In this environment all you really need is a modest cab lifted up to ear level so you can hear the highs. You will still hear the omni-directional lows from the PA. Off-axis performance is irrelevant for a stage monitor. If the drummer needs to hear it, turn it sideways and point it at both of you.

Bill has recorded over a hundred RTA of national acts with full PA support at his venue. He finds strong bass content below 60 Hz sounds awful for live sound. This is where 40 Hz SPL = 100 Hz SPL, or "flat down to 40". DJ and recorded music are a different matter.

 

[Vic]

If it is indeed a physically different cabinet, then it is a different design. An 'upgrade' suggests a 1 to 1 swap of the driver component or the crossover components with the cabinet remaining physically the same.

Then our definition of upgrade is a bit different. I personally wouldn't necessarily assume quite that much. I could also see it meaning more than just a driver swap in the same cab, but of course I don't know if they're doing that or not either.

However, even if the cab is the same (and to be honest, it probably is), we still don't know for sure they haven't done their homework in selecting a Beyma driver that DOES fit the cab properly do we?

That's what I mean by "properly executed".

One of the posters above seems to suggest you could swap any of the three drivers, - woofer, mid range and HF driver, in any permutation you want, one two or three.

Yes, but I don't think that poster works for DR, or at least I didn't see where he knew for sure about that, so I wouldn't consider that authoritative. Besides, even if he's right, again, if the drivers were properly selected, wouldn't that be viable anyway?

Bottom line is, I just don't think we know enough about what they do or don't do to be critical... at least not yet.

 

[Vic]

Bill has recorded over a hundred RTA of national acts with full PA support at his venue. He finds strong bass content below 60 Hz sounds awful for live sound. This is where 40 Hz SPL = 100 Hz SPL, or "flat down to 40". DJ and recorded music are a different matter.

HUGE +1!!!!!!

Huge. Huuuuuge +1.

I also agree with your comments about the effects of PA support and what a stage rig is really best used for under those conditions as well. Big time.

 

[synaesthesia]

Bottom line is, I just don't think we know enough about what they do or don't do to be critical... at least not yet.

You are optimistic and I am not, (I can't use smileys but would here...)

Their website list various drivers at different prices with no mention for how they accomodate them. Their model remain the same and seem to refer to cabinet configuration e.g. 112, 115 for 1X 12 and 1X 15 etc.

I'd be willing to give them the benefit of doubt but the eternal pessimist sees a list of cheap to more expensive Beymas (some possibly worse than their so called equivalent Eminence in performance not price) wonders differently.

 

[Vic]

You are optimistic and I am not, (I can't use smileys but would here...)

Their website list various drivers at different prices with no mention for how they accomodate them. Their model remain the same and seem to refer to cabinet configuration e.g. 112, 115 for 1X 12 and 1X 15 etc.

I'd be willing to give them the benefit of doubt but the eternal pessimist sees an list of cheap to more expensive Beymas (some worse than their so called equivalent Eminence in perfromance not price) wonders differently.

...and you could be right, but I'd personally just prefer confirmation before suggesting they're definitely doing something technically foolish.

Question, since you appear to have looked at the driver specs (and I have not). Is there anything in the specs' diffs to suggest they couldn't possibly work correctly in the same cab design, or is that alone not enough info for that?

 

[KJung]

...and you could be right, but I'd personally just prefer confirmation before suggesting they're definitely doing something technically foolish.

Question, since you appear to have looked at the driver specs (and I have not). Is there anything in the specs' diffs to suggest they couldn't possibly work correctly in the same cab design, or is that alone not enough info for that?

Have Don at LDS build you one and then you will know for sure In my discussions with Don, I believe that there are no two drivers that have such identical specs that you don't have to do at least some minor modification to the crossover and porting. This becomes even more complicated when you go to a three way design from what I understand.

That being said, I remember ripping out the old Eminence or Jensen drivers that came with many a cab back in the day and cramming JBL's or Altec's in there. Of course, there were no crossovers in bass cabs back then, but I'm sure the tuning of the cab relative to the drivers was all shot to hell by the time I got done... and darn it if those cabs didn't sound a ton better EVERY time.... deeper bass, more top end, louder...everything.

I guess there is something to say about higher quality components even if they aren't completely optimized to the cab... at least in one way bass guitar enlosures.

 

[Vic]

Have Don at LDS build you one and then you will know for sure In my discussions with Don, I believe that there are no two drivers that have such identical specs that you don't have to do at least some minor modification to the crossover and porting. This becomes even more complicated when you go to a three way design from what I understand.

...and I totally trust his word on that. Thanks.

That being said, I remember ripping out the old Eminence or Jensen drivers that came with many a cab back in the day and cramming JBL's or Altec's in there. Of course, there were no crossovers in bass cabs back then, but I'm sure the tuning of the cab relative to the drivers was all shot to hell by the time I got done... and darn it if those cabs didn't sound a ton better EVERY time.... deeper bass, more top end, louder...everything.

I guess there is something to say about higher quality components even if they aren't completely optimized to the cab... at least in one way bass guitar enlosures.

+1

Despite Don's well informed comments, I've also experienced this, and maybe this is more of a testament to our imperfect human ears vs the "perfect" cab design.

I swapped some speakers out of a cab a while back (a 212)... without even looking at the speakers' specs diffs, and I also liked the results.

Bill, Don, and synaesthesia might string me up for doing such a thing, but it really did work out at least for me.

 

[synaesthesia]

Question, since you appear to have looked at the driver specs (and I have not). Is there anything in the specs' diffs to suggest they couldn't possibly work correctly in the same cab design, or is that alone not enough info for that?

The 2 way cabs are more forgiving to component swaps... the 3 way cabs less so as there is more need to match. It is possible to find drivers that are close in performance to match a given box's size, configuration and porting. I don't say that sonically you may be better of or worse, but that the practice of offering seemingly indiscriminate driver component swap in a technically measurable product is not something that gives me confidence in the manufacturer's products.

 

[Vic]

The 2 way cabs are more forgiving to component swaps... the 3 way cabs less so as there is more need to match. It is possible to find drivers that are close in performance to match a given box's size, configuration and porting.

Gotcha. That makes sense.

I don't say that sonically you may be better of or worse, but that the practice of offering seemingly indiscriminate driver component swap in a technically measurable product is not something that gives me confidence in the manufacturer's products.

Totally agreed!!

 

[alexclaber]

This is the kind of thing where it comes down to the individual makers approach, to a degree. I believe Dr Bass are using the same cabs whichever speaker you use and are also using an off-the-shelf crossover, which keeps the cost down and allows a more varied product line, but inevitably less consistent control of what the finished product actually sounds like - a suck it and see approach! The opposite is the Acme approach where each cab has gone through a very extensive design process to optimise every last detail - in this case you get a cab that sounds just as it is designed but if you want a different sound you'll have to go elsewhere or wait a very very very long time for a new model!

Alex

 

[bgavin]

I don't spend much time looking at one-size-fits-all boxes such as the Avatar and others. Decades of design experience taught me that rarely is one box the correct match for multiple drivers.

For example, Avatar interchanges the following driver combos in a single box size of 27x25x16.5 inches:

B115
B115-03
B115H-03
B212-03
B410
B410 Delta
B410 Pro
B410-03
B410 Neo

The chances of all these driver combinations being optimal in the above cabinet is zilch. These are profit-driven boxes sold at low prices. The baffle board size is determined by the size of the drivers, not by any sophisticated engineering. These are all commercial clones restricted to a specific look and feel that is "safe" or "standard". Take note that 410 cabs are nearly identical in width across all manufacturers. Height and depth are all very similar. Cookie cutter engineering for the posers and the masses.

Anybody seen a vertical 4x10?
Nope. It would "look dorky" or some such silliness. A vertical 410 also kicks the snot out of a commercial 410 in off-axis response. But if you want one, you have to have one custom built (read: engineered) for you. This is not a "safe" visual and is too risky for a commercial product.

On the flip side, a highly engineered cabinet such as Bill's Omni15 specifically uses the Kappalite 3015LF in a slot loaded port that maximizes the air mass on the cone to lower Fs and increase bass response. The specified Alpha 8MRA 8" mid-range is fully horn loaded above 450 Hz to enhance and smooth the response. The crossover network is hand matched to these particular drivers. The enclosure and horn are tailored to these drivers. Without a full grille, the O15 looks dorky too. The dork factor disappears when you fire it up.

 

[vicenzajay]

I believe Dr Bass are using the same cabs whichever speaker you use and are also using an off-the-shelf crossover, which keeps the cost down and allows a more varied product line, but inevitably less consistent control of what the finished product actually sounds like - a suck it and see approach!
Alex

As I'm not an engineer, and I don't pretend to be one.

However, I need to punch in here and say that I know the comment about Dr. Bass's crossovers is incorrect. Marc wires his own crossovers...they're actually (from the viewpoint of someone who is not technically educated) exceptionally well-executed and very, very robust. Much of the "praise" from those of us who own Dr. Bass cabs (two of them for a while, in my case)...especially the three way cabs...comes from the smoothness of the crossover response (and it's flexibility with regard to the MF and HF controls) and the resultant blend of great low end with exceptional articulation.

Of course, back to topic, both of my cabs (currently I only own one...a 2460 NEO) have had Eminence drivers vice the Beyma's...so I can't comment on their sound or performance from a comparison point of view.

Jay

 

[Mike Shevlin]

Anybody seen a vertical 4x10?
A vertical 410 also kicks the snot out of a commercial 410 in off-axis response.

I used two vertical 4x12's (Peavy PA speakers) with a Sunn power head in High School (1981-4) & have been waiting for a vertical anything since then (somehow I missed the EA 310 vert).

 

[alexclaber]

However, I need to punch in here and say that I know the comment about Dr. Bass's crossovers is incorrect. Marc wires his own crossovers...they're actually (from the viewpoint of someone who is not technically educated) exceptionally well-executed and very, very robust. Much of the "praise" from those of us who own Dr. Bass cabs (two of them for a while, in my case)...especially the three way cabs...comes from the smoothness of the crossover response (and it's flexibility with regard to the MF and HF controls) and the resultant blend of great low end with exceptional articulation.

Ah, my mistake, I'd assumed that references to cabs being delayed due to 'waiting on crossovers' was because these crossovers were being bought in. I'm a great believer in 3-way cabs - or 2-way mid/woofer cabs if you don't need that treble extension - as even relatively rough and ready implementations tend to sound better than most tweeter/woofer cabs.

Regarding crossover design, there are many ways you can do it. The basic approach is to take design the crossover based on the nominal impedance (the resistive model) and use a standard alignment. The most advanced approach is to measure the response and impedance (phase and magnitude for both) of the speakers once baffle-mounted, build a complex number model to represent them and then design the crossover around that model. The former takes about a minute using one of the myriad online crossover calculators. The latter can take months.

In the US you're in a great position for 3-way cabs - Acmes for the purists that want deep smooth response and either need less SPL or are happy carrying more firepower, DR Bass for a more traditional take on the 3-way approach and even the Carvin LSX1503 for a super-budget and easily modified to amazing performance cab. And AccuGroove if you have more money than...

Alex