BFM Quotes

[agedhorse]

There are many different ways to damp a panel depending on the exact resonance or displacement mode that you are trying to control. Finite element analysis tools can expand the levels of science used to describe and resolve such challenges. Aerospace tools have given us great insights into mechanisms once only postulated.

Note that the company I previously worked for (KMC Music) came out of the aerospace industry, and many of the folks I worked with there had a strong background in solid engineering principles. Parent company was: Invalid Link Removed There were some wicked smart guys running things and they understood these principles and could recognize where the potential might lead. Ovation guitars was an offshoot of the composite structures research, for example. The patent that I was awarded (along with Jeff & Scott) for thermal management and control in class D applications was in part driven by the scientific research and development environment that was a part of the fabric and culture of the industry. I might be working on a project with an MI guy one week and an aerospace engineer the next week, the expectations were that we understand a pretty broad cross-section of multiple disciplines in order to effectively integrate. I understood this because my dad was part of the same aerospace community, having worked for many of the same companies that they do.

 

[JimmyM]

There are many different ways to damp a panel depending on the exact resonance or displacement mode that you are trying to control. Finite element analysis tools can expand the levels of science used to describe and resolve such challenges. Aerospace tools have given us great insights into mechanisms once only postulated.

Note that the company I previously worked for (KMC Music) came out of the aerospace industry, and many of the folks I worked with there had a strong background in solid engineering principles. Parent company was: Invalid Link Removed There were some wicked smart guys running things and they understood these principles and could recognize where the potential might lead. Ovation guitars was an offshoot of the composite structures research, for example. The patent that I was awarded (along with Jeff & Scott) for thermal management and control in class D applications was in part driven by the scientific research and development environment that was a part of the fabric and culture of the industry. I might be working on a project with an MI guy one week and an aerospace engineer the next week, the expectations were that we understand a pretty broad cross-section of multiple disciplines in order to effectively integrate. I understood this because my dad was part of the same aerospace community, having worked for many of the same companies that they do.

And you have musical ears. A lot of people forget that MI engineers actually do use their ears when designing this stuff, too

 

[agedhorse]

I don't disagree with this at all. Of course, I don't have the background to disagree But I do have ears, and while Bill is mostly factually correct in all the stuff he told us, the two things he has blind spots about are accepting that woofers could ever have acceptable off-axis response compared to mid drivers, or accepting that direct radiating cabs could ever be considered as good as horns for anything but guitar. And here I was, trying out different stuff and listening for things he told me to listen for, and finding out that he was 100% right about the performance aspects of the gear I was trying, yet I was enjoying the sound out of my direct radiator cabs with no mid drivers more than any of them. And even though I could hear that they weren't as bright off axis as on, or performed as efficiently as a horn loaded line array, quite frankly it doesn't matter to me because it still sounds exactly how I like it to sound, and I try to set the PA to sound like that.

And Faitals do kill, judging from recordings I've heard. Have seriously considered trying them in a 115 cab. Then I realize I'm happy with what I have for 115's and I save my money

...and he would argue that you were flat out wrong without considering that every one of the tradeoffs in what you are playing worked for your tastes and your music styles. Frankly, there is way more gray than black and white, and to argue the opposite is, frankly, offensive to your intelligence. Being willing to accept that different players have different tastes and preferences is essential to getting along in this industry. For example, I totally get why you like Ampeg and have no problem with that because that's what suits YOUR taste, and there is nothing in the world wrong with that. If I were to say that you were wrong for your choice would be total BS on my part.

 

[JimmyM]

...and he would argue that you were flat out wrong without considering that every one of the tradeoffs in what you are playing worked for your tastes and your music styles. Frankly, there is way more gray than black and white, and to argue the opposite is, frankly, offensive to your intelligence. Being willing to accept that different players have different tastes and preferences is essential to getting along in this industry. For example, I totally get why you like Ampeg and have no problem with that because that's what suits YOUR taste, and there is nothing in the world wrong with that. If I were to say that you were wrong for your choice would be total BS on my part.

Well that is nice of you to say, Andy, and I say the same about those who prefer Genz and Mesa amps and cabs you are involved with creating as well. It's all good. But there was a period in the early-mid 2000's where I tried to not like Ampeg cabs and SLM was making it real easy for me So at least nobody can say it's because I didn't give horns and mid drivers a fair shot. I certainly did. Played through some of the finest PA's and 3-way setups at the time. And for that reason, I think I escaped the BFM double facepalm where a lot of folks didn't. I got what he was saying and didn't try to argue the science. I just decided my sound through them sounded better when they were reproducing what my B-15 and 810 were putting out. There's really not a lot you can say to that except "OK"

 

[Foz]

Oh I aint saying BFM never said nuthin' true - just that if you want to understand the physics on any given topic - you really gotta be willing to to dig a lot deeper than your average BFM'ism - and that's a scientific fact. Not just me being an ******* [though I can do that on request].

All depending on how much of the real world you can stomach. [your call not mine].

But best I can tell - by TB standards - BFM was more than most folks could handle - so I guess that makes his half right physics bloviations good enough for TB?

YMMV

 

[cfsporn]

There are many different ways to damp a panel depending on the exact resonance or displacement mode that you are trying to control. Finite element analysis tools can expand the levels of science used to describe and resolve such challenges. Aerospace tools have given us great insights into mechanisms once only postulated.

Note that the company I previously worked for (KMC Music) came out of the aerospace industry, and many of the folks I worked with there had a strong background in solid engineering principles. Parent company was: Invalid Link Removed There were some wicked smart guys running things and they understood these principles and could recognize where the potential might lead. Ovation guitars was an offshoot of the composite structures research, for example. The patent that I was awarded (along with Jeff & Scott) for thermal management and control in class D applications was in part driven by the scientific research and development environment that was a part of the fabric and culture of the industry. I might be working on a project with an MI guy one week and an aerospace engineer the next week, the expectations were that we understand a pretty broad cross-section of multiple disciplines in order to effectively integrate. I understood this because my dad was part of the same aerospace community, having worked for many of the same companies that they do.

I have to ask; how does an aerospace company get into the MI business? Not saying they're diametrically opposed (just look at Yamaha), but they seem to be very different industries.

 

[Foz]

I am not - and will not - say that Jimmy aint getting what Jimmy wants from his rig. Nor will I deny that listening to his various clips is not instructive to me as a lonely man in search of the tone I want to love. In that regard Jimmy is a loving friend I never met.

But physics is cruel.

What works for a man is a given and forgiving in its subjectivity - the reality of the forces governing acoustics are not.

Understanding the first case is helpful - ******** is not. And IMO BFM did a lot of both. Thus, one should parse carefully.

YMMV

 

[moody]

Wrong thread! I'll get my coat...

Fast show reference?

 

[okcrum]

I think I gave BFM fits in one thread until I realized that the "10x power for twice the loudness" is a psychoacoustic thing. Then the correlation to SPL made sense.

 

[jnewmark]

I don't disagree with this at all. Of course, I don't have the background to disagree But I do have ears, and while Bill is mostly factually correct in all the stuff he told us, the two things he has blind spots about are accepting that woofers could ever have acceptable off-axis response compared to mid drivers, or accepting that direct radiating cabs could ever be considered as good as horns for anything but guitar. And here I was, trying out different stuff and listening for things he told me to listen for, and finding out that he was 100% right about the performance aspects of the gear I was trying, yet I was enjoying the sound out of my direct radiator cabs with no mid drivers more than any of them. And even though I could hear that they weren't as bright off axis as on, or performed as efficiently as a horn loaded line array, it didn't matter to me because it still sounds exactly how I like it to sound, and I try to set the PA to sound like that. Still learned a lot from the guy, no doubt about it. Not many shades of gray in his world, though.

And Faitals do kill, judging from recordings I've heard. Have seriously considered trying them in a 115 cab. Then I realize I'm happy with what I have for 115's and I save my money

He's sort of backed off that stance a little :

Simplexx

 

[agedhorse]

I have to ask; how does an aerospace company get into the MI business? Not saying they're diametrically opposed (just look at Yamaha), but they seem to be very different industries.

It's a fascinating story actually, here's a link:

Invalid Link Removed (click on full bio)

The composite back of the Ovation guitar was closely tied to his research on vibration transmission and absorption in composite structures in rotary wing air frames and rotors. Kaman Music expanded into distribution because the organization had a deep understanding of inventory logistics management... ie. tracking and shipping parts and finished goods, so they used this expertise in the music industry which was about 20 years behind Kaman.

By and large, everybody that I met or worked with at Kaman/KMC were really good people. I was already wary (for good reason) of large companies, but Kaman/KMC proved to be the exception to the commonly held opinion... and then came Fender

 

[okcrum]

I don't know why I never made the Kaman/KMC/G-B connection. I was aware of the Ovation story. That makes the G-B saga even better, and sadder for ending.

Andy, you're a talented and fortunate guy. Most engineers are lucky to work for just one company like Kaman in their careers. It looks like you've put a string of those together.

 

[Arjank]

BFM was right on most things, but I had an argument with him and he just told me that what I had "invented" couldn't work. I told him that I had a Dutch engineer simulate my "invention" in ACABAC and that it worked the way I thought it would work (I worked it out in my head). He just plain out said it's not true it can't work.... I know it does.

 

[JimmyM]

I am not - and will not - say that Jimmy aint getting what Jimmy wants from his rig. Nor will I deny that listening to his various clips is not instructive to me as a lonely man in search of the tone I want to love. In that regard Jimmy is a loving friend I never met.

But physics is cruel.

What works for a man is a given and forgiving in its subjectivity - the reality of the forces governing acoustics are not.

Understanding the first case is helpful - ******** is not. And IMO BFM did a lot of both. Thus, one should parse carefully.

YMMV

Aw, buddy! I am touched And you are absolutely right...science plain doesn't care what your opinion is. It's always going to do what it does.

 

[Downunderwonder]

BFM was right on most things, but I had an argument with him and he just told me that what I had "invented" couldn't work. I told him that I had a Dutch engineer simulate my "invention" in ACABAC and that it worked the way I thought it would work (I worked it out in my head). He just plain out said it's not true it can't work.... I know it does.

I recall you two having a stoush over some little cab of yours, iirc a 2x10 wedge. Details?

 

[Arjank]

I recall you two having a stoush over some little cab of yours, iirc a 2x10 wedge. Details?

That was something different. The argument was about how to eliminate the standing wave that can occur in large/long ports.