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Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia

Cool beans spiritbass. Thank You.

Since receiving the first MAS112 LPT I've been on a quest for tube amplification with maximum punch and 3D presentation.

The Schroeder DB7 and the Matchless Thunder Man are the two I kept.
Please note that both of these are 45 watt amps.

The one that I still really would like to hear though is the Audio Kitchen Base Chopper.

That said the Base Chopper is in that same rare air price range and wattage rating as the Schroeder Dozer.
Made in England vs. Chicago USA.

Google Schroeder Amplification or Audio Kitchen, take the tour, and you are all caught up on state of the art tube amps, IMHO.
 
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Cool beans spiritbass. Thank You.

Since receiving the first MAS112 LPT I've been on a quest for tube amplification with maximum punch and 3D presentation.

The Schroeder DB7 and the Matchless Thunder Man are the two I kept.
Please note that both of these are 45 watt amps.

The one that I still really would like to hear though is the Audio Kitchen Base Chopper.

That said the Base Chopper is in that same rare air price range and wattage rating as the Schroeder Dozer.
Made in England vs. Chicago USA.

Google Schroeder Amplification or Audio Kitchen, take the tour, and you are all caught up on state of the art tube amps, IMHO.

I'll take the tours, thanks. :) I've been getting my kicks for the last couple of years (and feeling quite spoiled) with a Reeves Custom 225 and a Shaw B-150. Satisfied grins ensue every time I fire one up with a Flex 110. :cool:
 
yacht clubbing. Odd night - had a trumpet player sit in who was a great trumpet player but a terrible percussionist. And he decided to play percussion on almost every tune. I finally told him to stop during the drum solo on Footprints. Was freakin' awful. For most of the night I thought I was struggling with my intonation. Then towards the end of the last set it became evident that the keyboard player's Nord was playing random notes. He'd gone in and "fixed" the keybed last week. Yes, yes, he did.

Bass sounded great despite everything. I found with this room I preferred the compressor off and also used the smoother mid setting on the cab.

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yacht clubbing. Odd night - had a trumpet player sit in who was a great trumpet player but a terrible percussionist. And he decided to play percussion on almost every tune. I finally told him to stop during the drum solo on Footprints. Was freakin' awful. For most of the night I thought I was struggling with my intonation. Then towards the end of the last set it became evident that the keyboard player's Nord was playing random notes. He'd gone in and "fixed" the keybed last week. Yes, yes, he did.
Ha! Everyone looks super-focused...
 
Ha! Everyone looks super-focused...

When totally random notes are coming out of the keyboard, and the trumpet player is alternating between off-time shaker and off-time clave (as in out of time, not syncopated), focus is pretty much demanded to hold the thing together. :D

Crazy thing is we had people dancing, and multiple people raving about the band. I attribute that to our singer (she sings in my band, nostatic - she was sitting in on this hit) who is phenomenal. And it helps that the drummer (he's also in nostatic) and I have been playing together now for about 7 years so it takes a lot to derail the rhythm section.

Ahoy!
 
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Hey, Todd, thanks for reporting back with your gig experiences. That the cab handled a difficult room well doesn't surprise me. I've found Mike's cabs to be better for that than anything I've heard. That's not to say that they take the stage or the room completely out of the equation, but I've found that I have more freedom with where I put my cab (without worrying about boomy or "dead" spots) and with where I can stand relative to it and still clearly hear myself, vs. other cabs.

I've never played one of Duke's cabs, but I'll admit to having played around with the idea of picking up a 1203 -- it's such a cool looking little grab-n-go cab, and the tonal descriptions (and your clips) paint a favorable picture of the slightly mid-forward, growl-friendly but well-balanced tone of the cab. Given your preference for cabs with a bit of attitude in the mids, I wonder what your take is on the tonal profile of the 109, or its character vs. that of the 1203 or any other MAS cabs you might have played (I think you mentioned the Flex at one point, and I'm familiar with that cab, which, at gig volume, has crazily full and detailed mids).

Cheers,
Mark

ok, so first gig with the MAS109 tonight (just that alone). This is probably the worst room I play regularly. It is a jazz jam where I'm the house bassist, held in a church. The room is boomy with a capital BOOM. I've been doing this gig for years and never have been able to get a good bass sound. Well, until tonight. One good thing about the gig is that other bass players sit in so I can be out in the room and hear how things are going. Tonight was one other regular guy with a very nice Adamovik 5-string. I was running the Mesa D-800 in.

I frankly was shocked at how well the cab worked. Head was dead flat - I didn't need to try and eq anything. No bass bloat or boom. As much as I love my Duke cabs, they were challenged by this room, as were my Berg and Baers.

Tomorrow night is a different club doing music behind/with some live actors, then Fri is a yacht club gig. Will have more thoughts, but tonight frankly blew me away.

Three Clubs in Hollywood - a combined theater/music thing. I can say I was incredibly happy with the bass sound. We played before the actors, then between scenes, and a few times vamped underneath dialogue. I could always hear what I was doing, and it felt nice a full. To be fair I was running into FOH but according to the sound guy he had me very little in, and mostly just a slight cut in the low mids. So far I'm impressed with this cab. Fri it's on to the yacht club gig...

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Hey, Todd, thanks for reporting back with your gig experiences. That the cab handled a difficult room well doesn't surprise me. I've found Mike's cabs to be better for that than anything I've heard. That's not to say that they take the stage or the room completely out of the equation, but I've found that I have more freedom with where I put my cab (without worrying about boomy or "dead" spots) and with where I can stand relative to it and still clearly hear myself, vs. other cabs.

I've never played one of Duke's cabs, but I'll admit to having played around with the idea of picking up a 1203 -- it's such a cool looking little grab-n-go cab, and the tonal descriptions (and your clips) paint a favorable picture of the slightly mid-forward, growl-friendly but well-balanced tone of the cab. Given your preference for cabs with a bit of attitude in the mids, I wonder what your take is on the tonal profile of the 109, or its character vs. that of the 1203 or any other MAS cabs you might have played (I think you mentioned the Flex at one point, and I'm familiar with that cab).

Cheers,
Mark

Mike and I have been going back and forth on cab design/sound for a couple years now. I'm always interested in new designs that can get close to the sound and feel that is in my head (they are companions to the voices up there). I had a 45/110, and both steubig and I found something really interesting going on with that cab (especially the 45), particularly when you let notes and certain intervals decay. But is was way too thick in the low-mids for my taste, at least at that point in time. I also had a TC212 composite (Duke design, Mike built the cabs) but that was overkill for what I was looking for.

After the 45/110 experiment Mike and I talked a couple of times. He said I was part of the impetus for the Flex design as he likes to have good support in the low mids, so his cabs went that way sonically. The Flex was his take on building something that could be a little more lean there, and have a bit more edge in the upper mids. For me though the Flex is too heavy - I'm at about 100 gigs a year, schlep my own stuff, and have chronic back/neck things I need to worry about so I won't own anything over 35 lbs. When I saw the MA109 I was interested, especially due to the form factor. When I saw the MAS109, I gave Mike a call to see what he thought. He said he thought I'd really dig it, as it has low extension (which I was looking to augment in the H1203), but not nearly the thickness in the low-mids. Given that I was thinking of running it underneath the H1203 on bigger gigs, he suggested a low-pass filter on one of the input jacks so I could run it like a subwoofer (well, more of a woofer) with the H1203.

The H1203 really is a magic cabinet. It is small, light, loud, and has a sound that I really like. I vastly prefer a 3" paper cone driver over a traditional tweeter/compression horn, especially since I like a bit of grit in the upper mids. That's one reason I gigged Roger's ML112 cab for a year or two. Mike has been using the 3" for some time, and Duke and Roger do, and now Genzler is as well. The only criticism that I can level at the H1203 is that it doesn't reach that low. But you're running into the realities of physics - you can't have everything, and a small/light box is only going to go so low. That said, Duke's design pushes it further than any other small cab I've tried, and I've tried a lot. The fact that I can cover most of my gigs with a single H1203 and no FOH says something.

The MAS109 is a different profile. The upper mid edge is similar, since it is using 3" paper cones like the H1203. The low end profile is different though - 10" speakers just sound different than 12" speakers. When steubig and I were comparing, the adjectives that come to mind are that the 12" is more "open" than the 10", while the 10" is more "focused" than the 12". That's one reason the pair is phenomenal. Plus the MAS109 extends low and does so without a lot of boom or bloat.

Just because I'm CDO (that's OCD but in alphabetical order), I'd dig the H1203 in a box that fit perfectly on top of the MAS109. Or if I really wanted to get greedy, I'd want an MAS109 that was about 14" deep with a recessed speakon jack (I'm on tight quarters a lot), and then a 12/3 module to sit on top. That said, I'm seriously considering another MAS109 but with the Claire tweeter, and then I'd run that as a single cab for smaller gigs, then run the one I have underneath for bigger gigs.
 
Thanks for the explication, Todd. Some follow-up questions:

How would you characterize the mid-mids of each cab? The Flex, with its 6" mids (I've owned another cab that used that mid, and I believe the same mid is used in the Baer ML 112), grinds lower than the 46 with its 3" mids (same mids as the 109, I believe) or the 112 with its 4" mids. There are other differences between the cabs, of course (box, woofers, crossover), but I wonder how you hear that lower range. Sometimes a bit of grind/growl there is nice (though it can get gankily out of hand if there's too much). Maybe you already answered that in part with "open" vs. "focused".

You mentioned (and I can imagine) that the 109 and the 1203 as a pair are "phenomenal". Do you find that phenomenal sound to hold together very consistently throughout the room? I assume that you're running the 109 low-passed that way -- is that correct?

Grazie in anticipo.
-Mark

Mike and I have been going back and forth on cab design/sound for a couple years now. I'm always interested in new designs that can get close to the sound and feel that is in my head (they are companions to the voices up there). I had a 45/110, and both steubig and I found something really interesting going on with that cab (especially the 45), particularly when you let notes and certain intervals decay. But is was way too thick in the low-mids for my taste, at least at that point in time. I also had a TC212 composite (Duke design, Mike built the cabs) but that was overkill for what I was looking for.

After the 45/110 experiment Mike and I talked a couple of times. He said I was part of the impetus for the Flex design as he likes to have good support in the low mids, so his cabs went that way sonically. The Flex was his take on building something that could be a little more lean there, and have a bit more edge in the upper mids. For me though the Flex is too heavy - I'm at about 100 gigs a year, schlep my own stuff, and have chronic back/neck things I need to worry about so I won't own anything over 35 lbs. When I saw the MA109 I was interested, especially due to the form factor. When I saw the MAS109, I gave Mike a call to see what he thought. He said he thought I'd really dig it, as it has low extension (which I was looking to augment in the H1203), but not nearly the thickness in the low-mids. Given that I was thinking of running it underneath the H1203 on bigger gigs, he suggested a low-pass filter on one of the input jacks so I could run it like a subwoofer (well, more of a woofer) with the H1203.

The H1203 really is a magic cabinet. It is small, light, loud, and has a sound that I really like. I vastly prefer a 3" paper cone driver over a traditional tweeter/compression horn, especially since I like a bit of grit in the upper mids. That's one reason I gigged Roger's ML112 cab for a year or two. Mike has been using the 3" for some time, and Duke and Roger do, and now Genzler is as well. The only criticism that I can level at the H1203 is that it doesn't reach that low. But you're running into the realities of physics - you can't have everything, and a small/light box is only going to go so low. That said, Duke's design pushes it further than any other small cab I've tried, and I've tried a lot. The fact that I can cover most of my gigs with a single H1203 and no FOH says something.

The MAS109 is a different profile. The upper mid edge is similar, since it is using 3" paper cones like the H1203. The low end profile is different though - 10" speakers just sound different than 12" speakers. When steubig and I were comparing, the adjectives that come to mind are that the 12" is more "open" than the 10", while the 10" is more "focused" than the 12". That's one reason the pair is phenomenal. Plus the MAS109 extends low and does so without a lot of boom or bloat.

Just because I'm CDO (that's OCD but in alphabetical order), I'd dig the H1203 in a box that fit perfectly on top of the MAS109. Or if I really wanted to get greedy, I'd want an MAS109 that was about 14" deep with a recessed speakon jack (I'm on tight quarters a lot), and then a 12/3 module to sit on top. That said, I'm seriously considering another MAS109 but with the Claire tweeter, and then I'd run that as a single cab for smaller gigs, then run the one I have underneath for bigger gigs.
 
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"CDO" :D I'm sorry to hear about the conditions forcing you to use only the lightest tools of the trade. My shoulders have been making smart remarks to my brain for a few years now, and they're getting more frequent here lately. Fortunately the only musical gear I am transporting any more is my bass of choice for the day...

Thanks for helping steer Mike toward dreaming up the Flex series. Took mine (set on default "dark" settings) on a musical trip this morning with the Shaw (bass -5, mid -5, treble -4) and my precision bass. The beautiful, authoritative bass sounds in my head were again made real! :cool:
 
For my low-end brethren (and sistren - is that a word) with shoulder/back/neck trouble - once again I have to mention the Mbrace stand.
I got mine just before having 3 vertebrae fused in my neck - recovery would involve "not lifting more than 5 lbs" for 6 weeks, which would have made practicing bass impossible. I got one, thought I'd just use it during my recovery but liked it so much I haven't stopped. It makes the weight of the bass a complete non-issue since you're not holding/supporting it.

Visible in my recent gig photo post (2294). Note the absence of a strap...
 
Thanks for the explication, Todd. Some follow-up questions:

How would you characterize the mid-mids of each cab? The Flex, with its 6" mids (I've owned another cab that used that mid, and I believe the same mid is used in the Baer ML 112), grinds lower than the 46 with its 3" mids (same mids as the 109, I believe) or the 112 with its 4" mids. There are other differences between the cabs, of course (box, woofers, crossover), but I wonder how you hear that lower range. Sometimes a bit of grind/growl there is nice (though it can get gankily out of hand if there's too much). Maybe you already answered that in part with "open" vs. "focused".

You mentioned (and I can imagine) that the 109 and the 1203 as a pair are "phenomenal". Do you find that phenomenal sound to hold together very consistently throughout the room? I assume that you're running the 109 low-passed that way -- is that correct?

Grazie in anticipo.
-Mark

Mids are a tad smoother in the MAS109 - that "focus" thing with the 10" vs the more open 12". They're both putting out most of the mids (I think) and I feel like the 10" is just a smoother overall presentation. That said, it will growl just fine, and the switch gives you the ability to tune to the room. For instance Friday there was a lot of glass in the room, and putting the switch in the smoother position helped with the tone. The H1203 can do the same thing, but oddly enough since the switches are in the back I rarely think about using them. Mike put the switch on the front of the MAS109 which is a nice touch.

I haven't gigged the pair yet, so that "phenomenal" is just how the setup sounded at home. But I've got a fairly good calibration on how the home tone translates to the room - it just has a lot of booty. Not sure when I'll try the pair - I have an outdoor gig on 14feb but it isn't a very loud venue so not sure it is a good test.
 
You are in the upper echelon already.
Varying degrees of Uber tubey goodness.
Horsepower aside.
I still remember a GTG where a member brought a low power antique tube amp and the assembled bassists were in agreement that it had one of the best tones that day. Including the maker of one of the best tube pre's ever. A harmonica ace I play with sometimes has these little old tube amps that get great tone. Love tube tone. I am just a blues fan though.
 
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I still remember a GTG where a member brought a low power antique tube amp and the assembled bassists were in agreement that it had one of the best tones that day. Including the maker of one of the best tube pre's ever. A harmonica ace I play with sometimes has these little old tube amps that get great tone. Love tube tone. I am just a blues fan though.
You can be a blues fan and love tube tone! :) I saw this video years ago -- don't know if I could find it again -- of some guy playing bass through an old, low wattage (for bass, anyway), tube PA head that he'd rescued and modified slightly for bass, and some simple, cheap cab that he'd put together. The tone was unreal. That video -- having that organic, chewy, detailed sound and that sense of bouncy propulsiveness in my ear and wanting to chase some of that down for myself -- was a big part of getting me interested in tubes in the first place (though I've only gone as far as tube preamps, so far).

Mids are a tad smoother in the MAS109 - that "focus" thing with the 10" vs the more open 12". They're both putting out most of the mids (I think) and I feel like the 10" is just a smoother overall presentation. That said, it will growl just fine, and the switch gives you the ability to tune to the room. For instance Friday there was a lot of glass in the room, and putting the switch in the smoother position helped with the tone. The H1203 can do the same thing, but oddly enough since the switches are in the back I rarely think about using them. Mike put the switch on the front of the MAS109 which is a nice touch.

I haven't gigged the pair yet, so that "phenomenal" is just how the setup sounded at home. But I've got a fairly good calibration on how the home tone translates to the room - it just has a lot of booty. Not sure when I'll try the pair - I have an outdoor gig on 14feb but it isn't a very loud venue so not sure it is a good test.

Thanks, Todd. I like growl. Like the ability to make the bridge pickup burp if I want it to, and would generally rather err just a bit on the rough side than the smooth side. Anyway, it all sounds good so far. Appreciate you sharing your impressions.
 
Another gig in another regular room. This is a very tight restaurant with a great regular audience. The singer was part of the original EW&F and recorded with Ramsey Lewis and others - he can work a crowd. We had a guitarist instead of horn last night so of course it got loud. The MAS109 continues to confound me as it has a solid foundation without being bloated. My drummer had the same comment - plenty of low end support but never over-bearing.

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