Big E speakers: Pt 2

[DukeLeJeune]

Last night I wrote that the MVW system "probably has poor time domain performance". After talking with Steve, Tom's co-inventor, I think that was probably a mis-characterization. I was thinking of the apparently de-correlated contribution from the bells arriving after some time delay.

Unlike a system based on a resonance, and in particular a Helmholtz resonance, the MVW enclosure loses energy very quickly when it is no longer being actively energized by the movement of the cone (and the cone in turn is moving in response to the signal from the amplifier). The MVW enclosure wants to quickly go to its rest state, rather than finding equilibrium in a resonant state that decays slowly, so at low frequencies it doesn't keep on singing after the amplifier has stopped telling it to. And that might well explain the quick stops.

 

[seamonkey]

This, I'm pretty sure, for all the frequencies amplified by the bells. Reinforced by our experiences with the hearing impaired. Pretty amazing to see the smile on a face when they pull their hearing aids out.

These speakers are not some universal hearing improvement device that can toss out all the other science.

I can see where the Big-E makers want to take this discussion. "It's magic"
Just like many other cab makers would want people to believe in magic only their cabinet can do. Fine, that's typical. Keep the miracle cures for hearing impairment out of it. Keep the magic out of the science based medicine, and science based methods.

 

[will33]

My interest in these doesn't even have anything to do with a bass rig....it's smallish PA systems.

If this tornado carbuerator thing does what I think...would one be able to get down to a solid 45-50hz from mains spread apart on poles while reducing the problems of trying to do LF like that?

You got cancellations, nulls, hotspots all working against you in addition to the pole mounted speaker playing in something approaching full-space below it's baffle step. That's a lot to overcome. Being able to get good, solid, fairly consistent sound out to say 150 people without having to carry subs would make my life a whole lot easier. Still seems a little "too good to be true" though. Don't know if psychoacoustics can make up for all that.

A lot of guys here talking about the bass being very even and consistent throughout the room, but most of them are playing bass through a centrally located speaker stack. What happens when you spread them 20ft. apart and put them 6ft. in the air?

 

[DukeLeJeune]

These speakers are not some universal hearing improvement device that can toss out all the other science.

I can see where the Big-E makers want to take this discussion. "It's magic"
Just like many other cab makers would want people to believe in magic only their cabinet can do. Fine, that's typical.

Wow, that's a pretty strong emotional response.

You might try asking Leland to explain his statement instead of putting words into his mouth.

 

[3rdcurve]

Wow, that's a pretty strong emotional response.

You might try asking Leland to explain his statement instead of putting words into his mouth.

+1

Sounds a little like someone has some sand in their nether regions.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

It's nothing that a little fiber in his diet couldn't help.

 

[CL400Peavey]

It's nothing that a little fiber in his diet couldn't help.

Link Removed

 

[5StringPocket]

My interest in these doesn't even have anything to do with a bass rig....it's smallish PA systems.

If this tornado carbuerator thing does what I think...would one be able to get down to a solid 45-50hz from mains spread apart on poles while reducing the problems of trying to do LF like that?

You got cancellations, nulls, hotspots all working against you in addition to the pole mounted speaker playing in something approaching full-space below it's baffle step. That's a lot to overcome. Being able to get good, solid, fairly consistent sound out to say 150 people without having to carry subs would make my life a whole lot easier. Still seems a little "too good to be true" though. Don't know if psychoacoustics can make up for all that.

A lot of guys here talking about the bass being very even and consistent throughout the room, but most of them are playing bass through a centrally located speaker stack. What happens when you spread them 20ft. apart and put them 6ft. in the air?

This is also my primary interest in Big E. I'm considering replacement of my PA stack with a pair of MAS 210's. It should be able to carry a room of up to 250 people with no additional subs which should save weight and pack space. As a bonus, one of these should make a killer bass cab if not enlisted for PA duty.

+1
Sounds a little like someone has some sand in their nether regions.

HaHaHaaaa ...

 

[lelandcrooks]

What happens when you spread them 20ft. apart and put them 6ft. in the air?

Magic.
Imaging and spaciousness that have to be heard to be believed.

The answer to the question will they cover it, is yes. The GC25xt, is solid to 60hz, up to 300watts. Cross at 70 and you can put 500w into it. 12db slope for either setting. 115-120db. I have some out already with a gospel group using bass and drums in small churches similar to the venues you describe. Running a pair. Is it overwhelming, no, but it is substantial. I routinely forget to turn on the subs in the shop and don't notice they're not on.

The GC25 is the best sounding cab in the line. It's an astounding little cab, the best sounding speaker I've ever heard, home or pro. For me, if I was doing your gigs, I'd carry in 4, 2 per side and be done. Drop 3-500 each watts into them.

 

[lelandcrooks]

Completely anecdotal on the hearing loss. From half a dozen or so listeners at least. We don't claim to have invented a magic bullet for that. There are too many kinds of hearing deficiencies. I have tinnitus in one ear. Bone induction testing revealed it's 60db down at 8k and up. The other ear still goes 15k. But it is better with these, I don't get that distortion artifact that shows up certain at sounds and frequencies.

The absolute clarity of the cabs may be the reason, I don't know. And that's all on this topic. Only PA and bass from here on out.

 

[12bass]

... My best guess as to why the Big E cabs have such precision and articulation down low is, psychoacoustics. They play to how the ear/brain system works, and in this case, it's counter-intuitive....

Psychoacoustics seems reasonable enough....

What is interesting is that these enclosures appear to represent a design which strays quite far from a linear, what-comes-in-is-what-goes-out, sort of response. I would not be surprised if they measured poorly in quantitative terms (e.g. impulse response). However, that does not mean that they do not sound subjectively good to the listener. Curious to learn more about the technology....

 

[Mike Arnopol]

This is also my primary interest in Big E. I'm considering replacement of my PA stack with a pair of MAS 210's. It should be able to carry a room of up to 250 with no additional subs which should save weight and pack space. As a bonus, one of these should make a killer bass cab if not enlisted for PA duty.


HaHaHaaaa ...

A pair of MAS 210's will cover a 1000 person. room.

 

[nomatic]

These speakers are not some universal hearing improvement device that can toss out all the other science.

I can see where the Big-E makers want to take this discussion. "It's magic"
Just like many other cab makers would want people to believe in magic only their cabinet can do. Fine, that's typical. Keep the miracle cures for hearing impairment out of it. Keep the magic out of the science based medicine, and science based methods.

I am unsure who you are but you seem very closed minded and somewhat rude? I have studied with a man for two decades who is both a P.H.D. research scientist and a noted Qi Gong Master. From his perspective magic is only science we have yet to understand. From my perspective as both a
mastering engineer and Beta tester for several manufacturers
in the Bass and studio worlds the Big-E cabs are something new. The non linear effects that they produce are like nothing
I have heard before and I don't give a Rat's A$$ how it does it. The proof is in the pudding...
Research Tom Beardon's work on the gutting of Maxwell's
equations as they relate to the complete understanding of Electrical engineering. Take a look at some of the old science
of geometry that the Mason's teach in there temples as a hint. There are models coming out of quantum physics that are shedding light on many things. Sorry for the rant but the function of the current crop of rigid scientific skeptics serve only to protect cherished paradigms rather than innovate. The universe is always bigger than the science of the day......

 

[mntngrown]

Magic.
Imaging and spaciousness that have to be heard to be believed.

The answer to the question will they cover it, is yes. The GC25xt, is solid to 60hz, up to 300watts. Cross at 70 and you can put 500w into it. 12db slope for either setting. 115-120db. I have some out already with a gospel group using bass and drums in small churches similar to the venues you describe. Running a pair. Is it overwhelming, no, but it is substantial. I routinely forget to turn on the subs in the shop and don't notice they're not on.

The GC25 is the best sounding cab in the line. It's an astounding little cab, the best sounding speaker I've ever heard, home or pro. For me, if I was doing your gigs, I'd carry in 4, 2 per side and be done. Drop 3-500 each watts into them.

Is there a GC45 for dummies who want to keep the wiring and pole mounting simple?

 

[seamonkey]

I am unsure who you are but you seem very closed minded and somewhat rude? I have studied with a man for two decades who is both a P.H.D. research scientist and a noted Qi Gong Master. From his perspective magic is only science we have yet to understand. From my perspective as both a
mastering engineer and Beta tester for several manufacturers
in the Bass and studio worlds the Big-E cabs are something new. The non linear effects that they produce are like nothing
I have heard before and I don't give a Rat's A$$ how it does it. The proof is in the pudding...
Research Tom Beardon's work on the gutting of Maxwell's
equations as they relate to the complete understanding of Electrical engineering. Take a look at some of the old science
of geometry that the Mason's teach in there temples as a hint. There are models coming out of quantum physics that are shedding light on many things. Sorry for the rant but the function of the current crop of rigid scientific skeptics serve only to protect cherished paradigms rather than innovate. The universe is always bigger than the science of the day......

Someone close to me is losing her hearing and it's a shame how quick the charlatans engage to rip some money out of the situation. Their claims are outrageous

I know Big-E has no intent in providing hearing solutions for the hearing impaired. It was a shock to me and a gut reaction to see this implied however so subtly.

 

[nomatic]

I have no idea what your speaking of as I didn't read the whole thread from top to bottom.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Someone close to me is losing her hearing and it's a shame how quick the charlatans engage to rip some money out of the situation. Their claims are outrageous

I know Big-E has no intent in providing hearing solutions for the hearing impaired. It was a shock to me and a gut reaction to see this implied however so subtly.

So now that details begin to emerge about the technology you choose to be offended by something else that's said. Sad really. Always looking for the negative in the world.

 

[christw]

Like Leland said, let's stick to bass and PA here.

So anyways, just a quick report... I've got a curse on my one 2x6 it seems. It's presenting a second weird issue but Mike is going way above and beyond to take care of it. I'm saying this as a testament to his willingness to make the problem right at his expense, not to dissuade anyone from trying these cabinets. I still highly recommend that people at least give them a listen.

Last night I wrote that the MVW system "probably has poor time domain performance". After talking with Steve, Tom's co-inventor, I think that was probably a mis-characterization. I was thinking of the apparently de-correlated contribution from the bells arriving after some time delay.

Unlike a system based on a resonance, and in particular a Helmholtz resonance, the MVW enclosure loses energy very quickly when it is no longer being actively energized by the movement of the cone (and the cone in turn is moving in response to the signal from the amplifier). The MVW enclosure wants to quickly go to its rest state, rather than finding equilibrium in a resonant state that decays slowly, so at low frequencies it doesn't keep on singing after the amplifier has stopped telling it to. And that might well explain the quick stops.

This actually makes a lot of sense with what my ears (and eyes) have been telling me.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Man---we really have to be paranoid about everything we say! We have no interest in anything beyond music reproduction. Leland's comment was just based on an experience that Steve had with either his father or father-in-law. His father(or in law) was in the room when Steve was testing some speakers. Little 6" based home hifi. His father said that he could hear the music without his hearing aid and had tears in his eyes because he said he hadn't been able to hear music like this in years. Who knows what the hell was going on. Maybe it was just a narrow frequency band---who knows?

We're not trying to make absurd claims. We just thought that it was a friendly enough environment here that we could just openly talk without fear of reprisal. Leland had the same experience with a hearing impaired person. Maybe it was a weird coincidence.

We're just talking like we were talking to friends. Not making any claims. We have no idea what's going on in this situation. We just found it interesting that both people had a nearly identical experience.

Some (???) have said that we're purposely holding back info and misinforming. So---I did my best to exp[lain basically what's going on. No holding back.

Is it money that you want?

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Someone close to me is losing her hearing and it's a shame how quick the charlatans engage to rip some money out of the situation. Their claims are outrageous.

Could you please clarify who you are calling a charlatan. I can't tell whether you're still upset at Big E, or at someone else and were just taking it out on Leland.