Big E speakers: Pt 2

[Arjank]

At the root of scientific inquiry is the word "inquiry". There's a difference between a scientific historian who can recite an impressive array of known facts, and a true scientist, who is actively working and experimenting to discover the fundamental, hidden principles which are in play in his area of focus.

I'm not one of those guys, but have had the privilige of associating with a precious few of them over the years, men and women who are way, way out on the tail end of the bell curve (like Tom and Steve). These people are pushing the frightening edge of discovery like an intrepid blind man exploring the unknown with only his cane, going wherever it takes them, and are not at all interested in defending the borders of current knowledge, although they are adept at using the tools it offers. They are pioneers, initiates, fire-bringers, heretics, witches, and blasphemers. And the best human beings I know.

I remember one time Earl Geddes was at odds with a majority of his fellow members of the Audio Engineering Society. One of them suggested that the matter be put to a vote. His reply was classic: "I shall abstain from voting. Science is not a democracy."

Obviously you have that excitement and sense of wonder at the discovery that there is more to the world than we have yet thought of. You and I may not be the ones actually pushing the boundaries, but we're serious enough students to recognize when there's something going on that is outside of the norm. Yes we risk being mistaken, but if we discover that to be the case, we course-correct and keep on seeking. If we wait until new knowledge becomes mainstream we run less risk of being mistaken, but we will have traded off our innate sense of curiosity and wonder and awe for safety.

Well said.
Let's wait and see what comes out.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Yes/No
Open baffle (sub)woofers can generate enough bass and with higher quality then regular "boxed" cabinets when placed correctly in the room (they don't do their job when they are placed in a corner since they are not "pressure" generators like boxed cabs).

I can't think of any case where taking a practical-sized open-baffle woofer or subwoofer and placing the same drivers in a good large sealed box would result in reduced low-end extension and headroom. Maybe I'm missing something?

As far as quality goes, yes there are definitely advantages to a good open baffle speaker.

IME bipolars create a great stereo image but somewhat more blurry then regular "point" source loudspeakers. They don't have that pin-point accuracy but offer a nice wide spatial sound.

Yes, there is a tradeoff between pin-point accuracy and rich timbre. You'll get better imaging in an anechoic chamber than in a good recital hall, for instance, but there's a reason why good recital halls are far from anechoic.

As far as guitar cabs go, I ones modified a 212 cab for a friend of mine. He got it back and the 1st thing he said that it sounded way more clear and articulate... the mod was that I closed the backside of the cab(yes, it was an open-back cab) and added some damping/lining inside).

That may well be true for guitar cabs, where the output from the open back has been colored by its transit through the cabinet. Minor detail: that's actually a dipole, not a bipole... but then you knew that!

I have conducted controlled blind listening tests, with level-matching of course, comparing monopole and bipolar versions of essentially the same speaker, and the bipolar was judged superior in clarity. But it's a tough sell out there in the real world.

 

[Arjank]

I can't think of any case where taking a practical-sized open-baffle woofer or subwoofer and placing the same drivers in a good large sealed box would result in reduced low-end extension and headroom. Maybe I'm missing something?

That's not what I meant, if you would indeed put that same driver in a "boxed" it will indeed offer more bass. I just wanted to make clear that an open-baffle subwoofer (when placed correctly in the room) will offer very high quality bass.

Yes, there is a tradeoff between pin-point accuracy and rich timbre. You'll get better imaging in an anechoic chamber than in a good recital hall, for instance, but there's a reason why good recital halls are far from anechoic

Yes, you NEED reflexions to "carry" the soundwaves through the room. That's what a GOOD recital hall will do, and, in such a way that the intelligibility doesn't suffer.

That may well be true for guitar cabs, where the output from the open back has been colored by its transit through the cabinet. Minor detail: that's actually a dipole, not a bipole... but then you knew that!

I have conducted controlled blind listening tests, with level-matching of course, comparing monopole and bipolar versions of essentially the same speaker, and the bipolar was judged superior in clarity. But it's a tough sell out there in the real world.

True, there's a great difference if it's a dipole or bipole, good point!

 

[lelandcrooks]

These cabs seem to offer the advantages of the bipole without the disadvantages of cancellations and serious placement issues. For use as stereo or HT cabs the imaging is better than anything I've heard. The GC25's create a sound field that is wide, and pinpoint accurate. Until you are directly in line with one cab the image does not change much at all. Literally you can walk around in the sound field and instruments stay in place. Very much like the best electrostats, but the sweet spot is not 6" wide. And they do it at PA volume levels. I cannot wait for Duke to finish tweaking the high end home audio cabs so I can build myself a pair.

 

[Arjank]

These cabs seem to offer the advantages of the bipole without the disadvantages of cancellations and serious placement issues. For use as stereo or HT cabs the imaging is better than anything I've heard. The GC25's create a sound field that is wide, and pinpoint accurate. Until you are directly in line with one cab the image does not change much at all. Literally you can walk around in the sound field and instruments stay in place. Very much like the best electrostats, but the sweet spot is not 6" wide. And they do it at PA volume levels. I cannot wait for Duke to finish tweaking the high end home audio cabs so I can build myself a pair.

Sounds cool.
I wanna hear it myself.....so let's wait t'ill the 1st MVW ships to the Netherlands, then Í'll drive to the owner and compare it with my cab.

 

[mothra2]

Thanks for taking the time, One Drop. Very well phrased and explained.

At the root of scientific inquiry is the word "inquiry". There's a difference between a scientific historian who can recite an impressive array of known facts, and a true scientist, who is actively working and experimenting to discover the fundamental, hidden principles which are in play in his area of focus.

I'm not one of those guys, but have had the privilige of associating with a precious few of them over the years, men and women who are way, way out on the tail end of the bell curve (like Tom and Steve). These people are pushing the frightening edge of discovery like an intrepid blind man exploring the unknown with only his cane, going wherever it takes them, and are not at all interested in defending the borders of current knowledge, although they are adept at using the tools it offers. They are pioneers, initiates, fire-bringers, heretics, witches, and blasphemers. And the best human beings I know.

I remember one time Earl Geddes was at odds with a majority of his fellow members of the Audio Engineering Society. One of them suggested that the matter be put to a vote. His reply was classic: "I shall abstain from voting. Science is not a democracy."

Obviously you have that excitement and sense of wonder at the discovery that there is more to the world than we have yet thought of. You and I may not be the ones actually pushing the boundaries, but we're serious enough students to recognize when there's something going on that is outside of the norm. Yes we risk being mistaken, but if we discover that to be the case, we course-correct and keep on seeking. If we wait until new knowledge becomes mainstream we run less risk of being mistaken, but we will have traded off our innate sense of curiosity and wonder and awe for safety.

A BIG +1

 

[christw]

Sounds cool.
I wanna hear it myself.....so let's wait t'ill the 1st MVW ships to the Netherlands, then Í'll drive to the owner and compare it with my cab.

I was talking to Mike yesterday and I swear he said one already shipped to your part of Europe.

 

[Arjank]

I was talking to Mike yesterday and I swear he said one already shipped to your part of Europe.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

These cabs seem to offer the advantages of the bipole without the disadvantages of cancellations and serious placement issues. For use as stereo or HT cabs the imaging is better than anything I've heard. The GC25's create a sound field that is wide, and pinpoint accurate. Until you are directly in line with one cab the image does not change much at all. Literally you can walk around in the sound field and instruments stay in place. Very much like the best electrostats, but the sweet spot is not 6" wide. And they do it at PA volume levels. I cannot wait for Duke to finish tweaking the high end home audio cabs so I can build myself a pair.

I compared the 45 to an electrostatic that I have loaned to a friend, the Innersound Eros--a $10k speaker. It is a Dipole (?) as most electrostatics are. It is generally regarded as the best imaging speaker out there and I concur.Better than my Proac Tablette Signatures which are one of the best small point source speakers. But the sweet spot is about a foot wide. Outside of that the image collapses. But in that spot--oh my!! You can really reach out and touch things they're so realistic.

I preferred the 45's. Just as pin point imaging (astounding depth of field). Something weird about a more dynamic presentation. I would have thought that the image would get smeared due to all of the reflection information. It's almost like you get the reflections supporting the palpability of the image.

The weirdest thing is that the image holds up as you move.You can stand between the speakers and still have a sense of 3 dimensionality. Is the tonal balance and accuracy as good as a $10k speaker? Not really---but closer than I would have ever thought.

People have mentioned weird 3 dimensionality from just one speaker. Especially when playing effects or tight chords where the harmonics vibrate against eachother. I had a 45 wired with half of the speakers out of phase. I played music through them and the image of the vocalist was quite literally about 3 feet in front of the speaker but 3 feet off to the side. Weird.

You listen to one speaker with source material and boy does it sound nice. But you put two together in stereo and it's a quantum leap.It's not like just a summing of the two (well in stereo it wouldn't be with any speaker--but MUCH more profound with the MAS 45).There is just a really trippy immediacy with the presentation.

While the Innersounds are really a bit better at the ultimate tonal accuracy and inner detail there is something about the "thereness" of the 45's that I preferred them. It just felt more like I "was there" in the sense of presentation and dynamics.

Off topic here as far as use for bass but very interesting.

 

[tombowlus]

IBetter than my Proac Tablette Signatures which are one of the best small point source speakers.

Hey, those are the speakers I have in my "office system" that was downstairs when we were auditioning cabs the other day!

Great small speakers, for sure! I have them paired up with an Arcam FMJ setup.

 

[TomB]

There is a GC46. 4 6" faitals,2 comp drivers. But it is currently under revision. the GC25 is just so good it has forced us to rethink all the other PA tops crossover and tweeter choices. The GC46 were already excellent, it was my intended opening salvo cab, until we tweaked the 25. It just took the sound to a level we have to try to match with the other cabs. There is a large line array cab (WT8)that is within a hair of being equal to the GC25, but it's also well over 2k in price.

Methinks Leland is being a bit modest, here. I bought a pair of the GC46's a couple months (12 gigs?) ago. My goal was to replace the standard 2-way 15" PA box that's ubiquitous in small gig settings with something that would deliver at least equal volume with better clarity and room coverage, as the stock items have always frustrated me. These Big-E cabs haven't just done this ...they've blown them away. The clarity in the vocal range is outstanding and the "room-filling" capability surpassed my expectations. There's no lack of volume or low-end either; I'd say they are in fact a tad louder than conventional speakers.

What inspired me to write here & now is to mention in re to PA that these are also the perfect form factor for gigging (well, at 50lbs each I'd like a little lighter but...). With a strap handle on top it's a one-hand carry, and with spring handles on each side it lifts into place on a pole easily, especially for 2 people. They stack great in the van. Visually it takes a little getting used to the horizontal orientation vs. the vertical of the standard box, but it balances just fine on the pole.

As he mentioned, Leland is currently fine-tuning the mids and rethinking the upper end of the 46. If either the 25 or the next gen 46 is better-sounding than mine is now, that will be an awesome speaker indeed! And in case it hasn't been said, Leland's customer service is fantastic for the PA stuff (Mike referred me to him when I first inquired). It's a real pleasure dealing with him.

Now, back to talking bass, right? Well, yeah, the low end on these things is fantastic too!

 

[Thomas Ewers]

TomB,
Thanks for the kind works! I am glad you really enjoy your new cabs.
BigE.

 

[lelandcrooks]

Thanks for the kind words Tom, and for being my guinea pig. Whatever the updates are you'll get them.

 

[5StringPocket]

Since it seems the 5's really hit the sweet spot with overall voicing and the Eminence 3010LF is a low end monster that seems to work great in these MVW cabs, is there any thought of testing the MAS 210 with 5's instead of 6's?

 

[Jim Nazium]

Glad to hear that you're doing a 3 way...

Me too. Post pics.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Since it seems the 5's really hit the sweet spot with overall voicing and the Eminence 3010LF is a low end monster that seems to work great in these MVW cabs, is there any thought of testing the MAS 210 with 5's instead of 6's?

well--might as well let the cat out of the bag

The Mas 110Flex was our attempt to get the sound of the 45 with lower, louder low end. To go a bit louder and deeper than the 85. We didn't do it. Instead we wound up coming up with something VERY different than the 85. With the switching we can come very close to the voicing of the 85 but the presentation is just---different. In the words of Jerry Seinfeld it's "more of everything". It can do fat, warm R&B to Anthony Jackson pristine hifi to grinding rock. But it still has it's identity. Which I love.

Everyone, everyone says "can you couple a 45 with some big low end?

So, since we screwed up the first time (in a very fortuitous way) we're coming out with the Pure line. The 110 here is the "Flex" line.

The Pure line will have essentially a MAS 45 on top of either a 110, 210, or 15. All in one cab of course. No Flex switches. Just trying to get as close to an "85 sound only louder with a bit more extension" All with the Ciare tweeters.

One more PITA Big E story. We haven't talked as much about the 6.5" based cabs in a bit. I think that they're great cabs and maybe the best doubling cab in the lineup but I can't sit still. I always nitpick and try to improve things. As do Tom and Steve. A dangerous combination.

We found that the type of plywood makes a HUGE difference in sound. With the 6.5 cabs---to compare to a perfect ideal--had a bit too much upper bass/low mid warmth which made the flat mids sound a bit reticent. I was making them out of super light Poplar plywood. I experimented and made one out of 3/8" Okume plywood. It's likely stronger than 1/2" poplar and weighs about the same. Expensive, unfortunately--but 'cest la vie. Sounds like a different cab. I made a poplar and Okume cab at the same time. The upper bass peak went way down and the mids came up. The poplar is pretty soft and now I'm sure that it damps the mids. (in a big E box) So now I'm happy again with the 6's. Definitely the horsepower/weight champ of the Big E lineup. Goes as loud as an 85 (but a bit lower) or a 410 and is 25 x 15 x 13 and around 39#. Not as near-perfect midrange as the 45/85 but still good. Two Ciare tweets.

Funny thing is that where the poplar errs in the 6's it works very symbiotically with the 5's. Gives a little more upper bass/low mids and smooths out the mids a bit.

So---the 5's stay in poplar (Okume can be an option for a brighter cab) and the other cabs are going to be a combination of 1/2" and 3/8 Okume.

Okume is used mostly in the marine trade. It is incredibly stable and requires specific certification.

 

[JGR]

Hey Mike, would it be possible to do a MAS212 using say the 3012LF's or 12HP1060's? I still love the idea of the giant 15 cab, but I was thinking the dual 12's might bring the noise while keeping the form factor a bit more reasonable...

 

[MaHei]

Definitely the horsepower/weight champ of the Big E lineup. Goes as loud as an 85 (but a bit lower) or a 410 and is 25 x 15 x 13 and around 39#.

Really? I thought that title would go to the 8'' speakers. Does that mean their cabinets are considerably heavier?

 

[Lia_G]

If I recall correctly, the 8s are significantly heavier. Mike will confirm or deny.

Cheers,
Liam

 

[MaHei]

Maybe, but remember they also displace 2 1/2 times more air.