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Big E speakers: Pt 2
- Thread starter Chef
- Start date
- Status
- Jun 29, 2006
- 5,148
- 3,214
- Disclosures
- President, CEO, CFO, CIO, Chief Engineer, Technician, Janitor - Reiner Amplification
The 212 would be impractical---the 12's and 15's are so wide in the horizontal that we run them vertically. They are crossed over low enough that dispersion is not an issue.
So---we'll probably go from a 210 to the 15.
Steve said that the 210 sounds MUCH bigger than imagining a 110 x 2. As if the xover in the 110 isn't nuts enough, the 210 will likely have twice the parts count. Actually, the 110 xover isn't super complicated---it's the switching that makes my head spin.
The 210 will have a very complicated crossover and the switching.
Size is 26"w x 32 1/2"h x 14 1/2 d.. Should be 65 to 70#. Imagine the volume of a Fridge but with INSANE low end and the ability to go from hifi clean to Fridge grindy. Not too bad size/weight for what it does. Open recessed Penn Elcom cup handles on the side, skateboard corner wheels and a top center corner handle. All Okume build.
I'm pretty stoked.
The 110 will have to have the Penn Elcom "dogbone" handles on the sides. Cant cut into the output flares on this one. Very comfortable carry.
BTW---we are doing a very different approach to a manufacturer that says he's "crossing over the midrange high so it doesn't have to do the heavy lifting". What we're trying to do is utilize each driver for its strongest points. We're using likely the best prosound mid on the planet that goes quite low and quite high. (no secret---Roger Baer is using the same one I think)
The Kappalite 3010lf is fine for a low woofer but gets pretty wanky starting at about 400 hz. So the philosophy here is similar to the 85---take advantage of the strong points of the Faital misrange. On the 85 it's a purist thing. It's a remarkable little driver that goes low enough in the MVW.
The Faital 6wnd 120 is a remarkable driver. 100 hz to 8khz. Of course 100 hz is too low for the driver to handle enough power but with the 110 we can get away with pretty low. Steve has it engineered so that when you're at 0db padding the xover point goes up to allow for more power handling.
Obviously on the 210 (which uses the same mids) the xover point is up a bit but still low enough that the basic sonic character is handles by the mids.
One interesting thing---the Kappalitelf's go insanely loud before coil-smack. But they start sounding pretty lame way before that point. But the wankiness you hear is mostly noticeable in the midrange. On the 110 and 210 the midrange of the 10 is out of the picture. So when comparing the 110 to two 3015lf based cabs---the lf's went futher before coil smack but right before the point that the 110 was experiencing smackdown it was still clean and musical where the 3015lf's were sounding pretty farty and while they went further, IMO the sound was getting pretty unusable. Just my opinion.
Another thing---we're going way overboard with xover parts quality. I don't like low crossovers on woofers for Ebass. I think they compress the sound and hurt the quality of the bass. Steve is using 14 guage toroidal inductors. They're really pricey.We went back and forth listening to the woofers being biamped through a very nice Ashley amp and passively with the toroidals. I couldn't notice an appreciable difference. We are also using (multiple in some cases) 50 watt Huntington Mills aluminum cased non-inductive resistors. I would imagine that someone is usng parts of this quality but I haven't seen them.
Parts cost on the 110 xover is over $110 and it's double that on the 210. It takes nearly 3 hours to wire the 110 and longer on the 210.
But I think it's worth it!
So---we'll probably go from a 210 to the 15.
Steve said that the 210 sounds MUCH bigger than imagining a 110 x 2. As if the xover in the 110 isn't nuts enough, the 210 will likely have twice the parts count. Actually, the 110 xover isn't super complicated---it's the switching that makes my head spin.
The 210 will have a very complicated crossover and the switching.
Size is 26"w x 32 1/2"h x 14 1/2 d.. Should be 65 to 70#. Imagine the volume of a Fridge but with INSANE low end and the ability to go from hifi clean to Fridge grindy. Not too bad size/weight for what it does. Open recessed Penn Elcom cup handles on the side, skateboard corner wheels and a top center corner handle. All Okume build.
I'm pretty stoked.
The 110 will have to have the Penn Elcom "dogbone" handles on the sides. Cant cut into the output flares on this one. Very comfortable carry.
BTW---we are doing a very different approach to a manufacturer that says he's "crossing over the midrange high so it doesn't have to do the heavy lifting". What we're trying to do is utilize each driver for its strongest points. We're using likely the best prosound mid on the planet that goes quite low and quite high. (no secret---Roger Baer is using the same one I think)
The Kappalite 3010lf is fine for a low woofer but gets pretty wanky starting at about 400 hz. So the philosophy here is similar to the 85---take advantage of the strong points of the Faital misrange. On the 85 it's a purist thing. It's a remarkable little driver that goes low enough in the MVW.
The Faital 6wnd 120 is a remarkable driver. 100 hz to 8khz. Of course 100 hz is too low for the driver to handle enough power but with the 110 we can get away with pretty low. Steve has it engineered so that when you're at 0db padding the xover point goes up to allow for more power handling.
Obviously on the 210 (which uses the same mids) the xover point is up a bit but still low enough that the basic sonic character is handles by the mids.
One interesting thing---the Kappalitelf's go insanely loud before coil-smack. But they start sounding pretty lame way before that point. But the wankiness you hear is mostly noticeable in the midrange. On the 110 and 210 the midrange of the 10 is out of the picture. So when comparing the 110 to two 3015lf based cabs---the lf's went futher before coil smack but right before the point that the 110 was experiencing smackdown it was still clean and musical where the 3015lf's were sounding pretty farty and while they went further, IMO the sound was getting pretty unusable. Just my opinion.
Another thing---we're going way overboard with xover parts quality. I don't like low crossovers on woofers for Ebass. I think they compress the sound and hurt the quality of the bass. Steve is using 14 guage toroidal inductors. They're really pricey.We went back and forth listening to the woofers being biamped through a very nice Ashley amp and passively with the toroidals. I couldn't notice an appreciable difference. We are also using (multiple in some cases) 50 watt Huntington Mills aluminum cased non-inductive resistors. I would imagine that someone is usng parts of this quality but I haven't seen them.
Parts cost on the 110 xover is over $110 and it's double that on the 210. It takes nearly 3 hours to wire the 110 and longer on the 210.
But I think it's worth it!
Guessing the 210 will be 4 ohms? Any idea on the wattage?
I am officially spoiled by instant information. Waiting for the weekend seems like forever. #ihaveissues
I am officially spoiled by instant information. Waiting for the weekend seems like forever. #ihaveissues
Yeah---4 ohms. It will be very efficient (over 100db) and handle about 1000 watts. It will sound killin' with big tube heads. In our preliminary measurements we were getting 130db@100hz with a 500 watt amp. (Digimoda)
- Jun 29, 2006
- 5,148
- 3,214
- Disclosures
- President, CEO, CFO, CIO, Chief Engineer, Technician, Janitor - Reiner Amplification
Oh hell yeah, that sounds great! Adding another speaker always seems to be more than the sum of its parts and I can imagine how big the 210 must sound based on how impressive the single 10 was. I'm surprised going to a 12 bumps up the size so much - figured it would be closer to the 10 than the 15. Theoretically you could do a 310 that would be the same size as a fridge but a bit shallower... 
A tube amp deserves either being DI'd on the output or having the cab mic'd. When I'm in "soundguy" mode that's what I do. Anything else is sheer laziness (and/or disrespect of the bass) on the part of the soundguy
.
Mike, you have to try out a Mesa Buster with the Big E's. Holy cow, talk about tube amp magic! It seems to exaggerate the unique attributes of these designs. That feeling of a direct connection between what you do on the bass and what comes out is even better with the Buster than the other amps I've used. The enveloping "three dimensional" quality of the sound also seems to be complimented by the Mesa.
I'll be using a 2x6 with the Buster for a doubling gig with Paige and the Bel-Airs tomorrow. I can't wait to see how they handle together at a gig!
I'll be using a 2x6 with the Buster for a doubling gig with Paige and the Bel-Airs tomorrow. I can't wait to see how they handle together at a gig!
Thomas Ewers
Commercial User
Oh hell yeah, that sounds great! Adding another speaker always seems to be more than the sum of its parts and I can imagine how big the 210 must sound based on how impressive the single 10 was. I'm surprised going to a 12 bumps up the size so much - figured it would be closer to the 10 than the 15. Theoretically you could do a 310 that would be the same size as a fridge but a bit shallower...
The problem with a multi 12 is the multi part. One ain't bad but a double is. But I can tell you the double 10 is vicious! 310 would be easier for most as 2 side stay more manageable. Freaky would be a quad10 with double top section... Only problem would be is, I'll stand over there please!
BigE
- Status
