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Big E speakers: Pt 2

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#581
Mike Arnopol said:
well--might as well let the cat out of the bag

The Mas 110Flex was our attempt to get the sound of the 45 with lower, louder low end. To go a bit louder and deeper than the 85. We didn't do it. Instead we wound up coming up with something VERY different than the 85. With the switching we can come very close to the voicing of the 85 but the presentation is just---different. In the words of Jerry Seinfeld it's "more of everything". It can do fat, warm R&B to Anthony Jackson pristine hifi to grinding rock. But it still has it's identity. Which I love.

Everyone, everyone says "can you couple a 45 with some big low end?

So, since we screwed up the first time (in a very fortuitous way) we're coming out with the Pure line. The 110 here is the "Flex" line.

The Pure line will have essentially a MAS 45 on top of either a 110, 210, or 15. All in one cab of course. No Flex switches. Just trying to get as close to an "85 sound only louder with a bit more extension" All with the Ciare tweeters.

One more PITA Big E story. We haven't talked as much about the 6.5" based cabs in a bit. I think that they're great cabs and maybe the best doubling cab in the lineup but I can't sit still. I always nitpick and try to improve things. As do Tom and Steve. A dangerous combination.

We found that the type of plywood makes a HUGE difference in sound. With the 6.5 cabs---to compare to a perfect ideal--had a bit too much upper bass/low mid warmth which made the flat mids sound a bit reticent. I was making them out of super light Poplar plywood. I experimented and made one out of 3/8" Okume plywood. It's likely stronger than 1/2" poplar and weighs about the same. Expensive, unfortunately--but 'cest la vie. Sounds like a different cab. I made a poplar and Okume cab at the same time. The upper bass peak went way down and the mids came up. The poplar is pretty soft and now I'm sure that it damps the mids. (in a big E box) So now I'm happy again with the 6's. Definitely the horsepower/weight champ of the Big E lineup. Goes as loud as an 85 (but a bit lower) or a 410 and is 25 x 15 x 13 and around 39#. Not as near-perfect midrange as the 45/85 but still good. Two Ciare tweets.

Funny thing is that where the poplar errs in the 6's it works very symbiotically with the 5's. Gives a little more upper bass/low mids and smooths out the mids a bit.

So---the 5's stay in poplar (Okume can be an option for a brighter cab) and the other cabs are going to be a combination of 1/2" and 3/8 Okume.

Okume is used mostly in the marine trade. It is incredibly stable and requires specific certification.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's a lot of variables to consider. My original interest was in a pair of 6x6 cabs since they have the low end and volume but with those subdued mids it fell out of contention. Wood definitely makes a difference and from what I've gleaned, Okoume is stronger and harder than poplar. My choice after a number of builds is 12mm Okoume for all but the baffle and 12mm Russian Birch for the baffle. Marine grade Okoume (aka Joubert) is $125 for a 4'x8' sheet but I use it anyway because its light, strong, and holds up well with a Duratex finish. I'd be willing to accept an extra 5-8 lbs per 6x6 cab with Okoume if it fixed the mids. Would 12mm (1/2") Okoume throughout be excessive?

A 45 on top of a 210 sounds big and would probably be over 80 lbs but would a 110 be enough to provide a balanced low end with a 45?

With good low end extension and a do not exceed weight of 70 lbs, would the best full range cabs for PA which could also be used for bass guitar be:
* MAS 210/66 3-way
* 6x6 2-way built with Okoume to fix the mids
* MAS 110/45 3-way
 
#587
Oh man--Steve just split.

Tom and Steve are really great guys. Steve is driving 2 1/2 hours back home. Months ago Steve and Tom came over just to help me install a gas radiant heater in my garage.

I was pretty stressed about building the 110 top sections. There's a lean back so everything is compound angles. Steve showed my how to do it. I'm really excited about the MAS 210Flex.

I'll talk about the product line this weekend. It's been the feedback of the players that have helped it solidify.
 
#588
Jeepers, Mike, you really can't sit still, can you? Unreal how fast things are evolving here. It's like fruit flies. Exciting, but unreal.

Mike Arnopol said:
well--might as well let the cat out of the bag

The Mas 110Flex was our attempt to get the sound of the 45 with lower, louder low end. To go a bit louder and deeper than the 85. We didn't do it. Instead we wound up coming up with something VERY different than the 85. With the switching we can come very close to the voicing of the 85 but the presentation is just---different. In the words of Jerry Seinfeld it's "more of everything". It can do fat, warm R&B to Anthony Jackson pristine hifi to grinding rock. But it still has it's identity. Which I love.

Everyone, everyone says "can you couple a 45 with some big low end?

So, since we screwed up the first time (in a very fortuitous way) we're coming out with the Pure line. The 110 here is the "Flex" line.

The Pure line will have essentially a MAS 45 on top of either a 110, 210, or 15. All in one cab of course. No Flex switches. Just trying to get as close to an "85 sound only louder with a bit more extension" All with the Ciare tweeters.

One more PITA Big E story. We haven't talked as much about the 6.5" based cabs in a bit. I think that they're great cabs and maybe the best doubling cab in the lineup but I can't sit still. I always nitpick and try to improve things. As do Tom and Steve. A dangerous combination.

We found that the type of plywood makes a HUGE difference in sound. With the 6.5 cabs---to compare to a perfect ideal--had a bit too much upper bass/low mid warmth which made the flat mids sound a bit reticent. I was making them out of super light Poplar plywood. I experimented and made one out of 3/8" Okume plywood. It's likely stronger than 1/2" poplar and weighs about the same. Expensive, unfortunately--but 'cest la vie. Sounds like a different cab. I made a poplar and Okume cab at the same time. The upper bass peak went way down and the mids came up. The poplar is pretty soft and now I'm sure that it damps the mids. (in a big E box) So now I'm happy again with the 6's. Definitely the horsepower/weight champ of the Big E lineup. Goes as loud as an 85 (but a bit lower) or a 410 and is 25 x 15 x 13 and around 39#. Not as near-perfect midrange as the 45/85 but still good. Two Ciare tweets.

Funny thing is that where the poplar errs in the 6's it works very symbiotically with the 5's. Gives a little more upper bass/low mids and smooths out the mids a bit.

So---the 5's stay in poplar (Okume can be an option for a brighter cab) and the other cabs are going to be a combination of 1/2" and 3/8 Okume.

Okume is used mostly in the marine trade. It is incredibly stable and requires specific certification.
Click to expand...
 
#589
I have a question for the current Big E owners. Has anyone tried mic'ing your cab yet? I am toying with the idea of an all tube amp to run with my 85, but few offerings include a decent DI. With the cross firing and vortex happenings I wasn't sure what would be ideal.
 
#590
Did not know that the directs on most tube amps were not so good. I almost never go to PA or FOH.
Yeah I play in the places where you do not need support:smug: Heck I just need a decent crowd. But I have the MA 48 and still keep my self built 1515/66 in case I gotta play Yasger's Farm.
Waiting to hear all your responses. When I was reading up on some tube amps I thought some had good tube preamp DI's. Will have to check. I would guess that sweet spot about 6ft ifo the bige would be a decent mike spot, but I would keep tripping over the mike.
 
#592
3rdcurve said:
I have a question for the current Big E owners. Has anyone tried mic'ing your cab yet? I am toying with the idea of an all tube amp to run with my 85, but few offerings include a decent DI. With the cross firing and vortex happenings I wasn't sure what would be ideal.
Click to expand...

I've gone to a modded '67 Showman (basically more filter capacitance, some changes in coupling caps and a Mercury Magnetics OT with multiple taps) into a Sunn 200S. I asked the soundguy last weekend to mic it with an RE20. He was less than enthusiastic. He forgot to wire up my DI. 3 minutes in, he flashed a sign to me that said "Where's your DI sound?" At the end of the set, he told me that I should never set up any other way and even if the DI were wired up, he'd never use it. I had the amp on 5 and it was plenty loud.

So, now it's got me thinking about what the Showman would sound like with a Big E cabinet! Would it be efficient enough?
 
#593
I'd just mic it normally on the cones and enough to get the tweets.. The psyco acoustic hoopla won't really translate to the mics. If you could get 6 feet away it probably would be cool but I think it unnecessary. The good thing is that due to the loading--- the frequency balance, tight bass and low end extension will translate.

One interesting thing. I thought that maybe the whole Big E thing was dependent on the room reflections to do its thing. It's true---that's the way cool thing but outside it still does amazing things in terms of dispersion and drop-off. I played an outside gig on upright with the 46. The sound guy said he had very little of me in the pa---he thought that I must have had insanely loud stage volume because of what was carrying into the audience. Just a little local fest, but typically I would be nearly inaudible at any distance. On another gig on electric outside I walked to the opposite side of the stage and could hear myself fine.

Maybe we could get the Tomulator to chime in on the PA and mic'ing stuff-- that's what he and Steve do.

Steve should have the xover on the 210Flex done soon.
 
#594
Mike Arnopol said:
I'd just mic it normally on the cones and enough to get the tweets.. The psyco acoustic hoopla won't really translate to the mics. If you could get 6 feet away it probably would be cool but I think it unnecessary. The good thing is that due to the loading--- the frequency balance, tight bass and low end extension will translate.

One interesting thing. I thought that maybe the whole Big E thing was dependent on the room reflections to do its thing. It's true---that's the way cool thing but outside it still does amazing things in terms of dispersion and drop-off. I played an outside gig on upright with the 46. The sound guy said he had very little of me in the pa---he thought that I must have had insanely loud stage volume because of what was carrying into the audience. Just a little local fest, but typically I would be nearly inaudible at any distance. On another gig on electric outside I walked to the opposite side of the stage and could hear myself fine.

Maybe we could get the Tomulator to chime in on the PA and mic'ing stuff-- that's what he and Steve do.

Steve should have the xover on the 210Flex done soon.
Click to expand...

Good to know. I was very impressed at the MA48 outdoor capability. Something still happening outdoor too IMHO
 
#595
edwinhurwitz said:
I've gone to a modded '67 Showman (basically more filter capacitance, some changes in coupling caps and a Mercury Magnetics OT with multiple taps) into a Sunn 200S. I asked the soundguy last weekend to mic it with an RE20. He was less than enthusiastic. He forgot to wire up my DI. 3 minutes in, he flashed a sign to me that said "Where's your DI sound?" At the end of the set, he told me that I should never set up any other way and even if the DI were wired up, he'd never use it. I had the amp on 5 and it was plenty loud.

So, now it's got me thinking about what the Showman would sound like with a Big E cabinet! Would it be efficient enough?
Click to expand...

RE20 now on my list :D
 
#596
3rdcurve said:
RE20 now on my list :D
Click to expand...

It's a great mic. I've also used a Beesneez T3, which is their version of a U47FET and that sounded amazing. I bet it would work great for a Big E because of its more sensitive pickup. It would probably be able to catch the tweeter/woofer mix a little better, assuming you can keep leakage out of it. A 441 (or 421) would also be a great option.
 
#598
edwinhurwitz said:
I've gone to a modded '67 Showman (basically more filter capacitance, some changes in coupling caps and a Mercury Magnetics OT with multiple taps) into a Sunn 200S. I asked the soundguy last weekend to mic it with an RE20. He was less than enthusiastic. He forgot to wire up my DI. 3 minutes in, he flashed a sign to me that said "Where's your DI sound?" At the end of the set, he told me that I should never set up any other way and even if the DI were wired up, he'd never use it. I had the amp on 5 and it was plenty loud.

So, now it's got me thinking about what the Showman would sound like with a Big E cabinet! Would it be efficient enough?
Click to expand...

On an 85 definitely. I'll tell you---I'm not a tube fan for bass. The Big E's are the best I've heard with tubes because of the low end loading.They remain tight and focused.

I don't think I've heard anything better than Tom's Reeves with them. They sounded HUGE but detailed and with low end focus. When I can afford a personal roadie I'm getting one.
 
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