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Big, Serious Electrical Problem!!
- Thread starter brendanbass
- Start date
+1
Here's the insidious part: The drummer will probably scratch his head and wonder, because people touch that lamp all the time. He may be tempted to think that brendanbass did something "different" that caused him to get a shock, and that there's really nothing "wrong" with the lamp.
The difference is, the people who touch the lamp usually aren't well grounded; most likely, they're just touching the lamp, and nothing else, while standing on a carpet, wearing shoes, etc.
Brendanbass was well grounded through his bass, and that's why this happened. The lamp is still the problem, and needs to be disposed of or repaired/rewired.
later, ron
Well man, i'm glad your alright. If had a couple of run ins with getting shocked from my lips being too close to the mic. And that was just an annoying little shock, what happened to you must have been terrible. I just got finished star grounding my bass and it has no bridge ground. No hum and my body isn't a ground anymore. I think all companies should start star grounding, since it is safer, and has less hum. BTW, if your drummer doesn't get rid of the light, explain to him why you got shocked, throw away the light, and buy him a cheapie LED battery light.
This is ironic: our drummer just quit after our last gig... guess I wont have to be worrying about that lamp now...
- Feb 27, 2005
- 3,218
- 125
- Disclosures
- Full disclosure, I'm a certified Fender technician working in a music store that carries Fender, Yamaha, and Ibanez products among others.
It can be, but generally isn't. Even before I became an electrician I got hit repeatedly with 120 VAC, and I'm still here.
Although a small amount of current can kill you, it has to go directly across your heart, causing it to contract and stop beating, similar to the way the current went through your arm and you couldn't let go of the lamp.
Your body has miles of nerves in it, which are the paths of least resistance through your body, and most of the nerves in your body don't go anywhere near your heart. The current probably traced a path straight through your arms and chest, causing muscles to sieze up, but not your heart. So don't panic.
Also, while it can (there's that word again) cause arrythmia and palpatations after the fact, this generally only happens to the elderly, and would have happened within hours of the incident, not days.
The important thing to remember, though, is that while it's unlikely that you'll be killed through a 120V circuit, it's still possible. And be careful about assuming it's not your equipment (although I'll bet hard cash the lamp was the problem in your case!).
The worst shock I ever recieved was through plugging my amp's line out into a mixing board through an adaptor. The amp's previous owner had wired the neutral wire to the ground prong on the amp's plug, and when I went to plug the line out into the Radio Shack impedance matcher to the board, I became part of the amp's power circuit. For several minutes, until someone else in the band realized what was happening and unplugged the amp. I wasn't even touching my bass, and no testing short of opening up the amp or taking apart the plug would've warned me in advance.
All I'm saying is, be careful, but don't freak out about it. Getting zapped can kill you, but so can getting in a car, or standing on your front porch during a meteor shower. It's the amperage, not the voltage, that kills. Your body doesn't draw much current all by itself, and has plenty of "wiring" through your muscles in the arms and legs that doesn't go near your heart, spinal cord, brain, or anywhere else that can suffer permanent damage.
Oh yeah, don't ever touch someone when they're being shocked. Kick them loose, unplug the appliance, or flip the main breaker on the club or home's panel, or you'll get shocked through them, possibly making it worse on both of you.
Wow... just wow...
For the record:
In Australia, any exposed metal on a mains powered device that might come into contact with the mains MUST be connected to a safety ground.
"Exposed metal" is defined as anything you can touch with a "standard test finger." (I gauge it with my pinky finger which is pretty close to the standard!)
So, basically, lamps like that would be highly illegal over here. What makes it even worse is the mixture of grounded and non-grounded devices. The non-grounded ones are a potential source of high voltage, and the grounded ones are a convenient place to ground yourself! Freakin' recipe for disaster!
bongomania
Commercial User
Hmm, does that mean there could be a black market for them? I may start exporting illegal US lamps to Oz.
I jest, but I had the same sort of bad shock from nearly the same recipe: a grounded bass/rig, and an ungrounded lamp. Fortunately most of the jolt killed my amp and scorched/pitted my metal desk with a blue arc, and left me only mildly vibrating and scared. I was not touching the lamp, but my strings were, and I was touching the strings with my left hand only. I have been told (anecdotally, not by medical professionals) that if I had been touching the strings with both hands, I'd be dead.
actually...if you had been touching the strings with both hands, your hands would have been at the same potential (same voltage) and so no current would have flowed through (or over, as the case would be) your body...
However, you were still in an EXTREMELY dangerous situation...
too much american wiring safety (especially in the households) relies on 1) that all outlets are wired CORRECTLY 2) that all appliances are wired CORRECTLY and 3) that the main neutral in the house is wired CORRECTLY and connected to earth properly at the distribution board.
American wiring is still catching up in recognising the importance of using 3-prongs with a proper safety ground, and the use of RCD (americans call them GFI) for ALL power outlets...
However, you were still in an EXTREMELY dangerous situation...
too much american wiring safety (especially in the households) relies on 1) that all outlets are wired CORRECTLY 2) that all appliances are wired CORRECTLY and 3) that the main neutral in the house is wired CORRECTLY and connected to earth properly at the distribution board.
American wiring is still catching up in recognising the importance of using 3-prongs with a proper safety ground, and the use of RCD (americans call them GFI) for ALL power outlets...
- Mar 11, 2005
- 2,541
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- Disclosures
- Employee - Basscentre Melbourne
I am an electrician by day, and actually most home electrical deaths are from 120 v. Like you said, you can't let go. Electricity takes the shortest path to ground or back to earth. I would say it was the lamp, someone posted that lamps don't have grounds which is true. here is a little chart I found. Basically the amps is what kills you {look up for explanation}
Table 1. Estimated Effects of 60 Hz AC Currents 1 mA Barely perceptible
16 mA Maximum current an average man can grasp and "let go"
20 mA Paralysis of respiratory muscles
100 mA Ventricular fibrillation threshold
2 Amps Cardiac standstill and internal organ damage
15/20 Amps Common fuse or breaker opens circuit*
* Contact with 20 milliamps of current can be fatal. As a frame of reference, a common household circuit breaker may be rated at 15, 20, or 30 amps.
The bad thing is, AFTER a hit from an electrical circuit, you won't know the damage it did INSIDE of you, since the body is a conductor. You can sustain internal injuries and burns and die hours later even tough you feel fine.
It's some crazy stuff....
Table 1. Estimated Effects of 60 Hz AC Currents 1 mA Barely perceptible
16 mA Maximum current an average man can grasp and "let go"
20 mA Paralysis of respiratory muscles
100 mA Ventricular fibrillation threshold
2 Amps Cardiac standstill and internal organ damage
15/20 Amps Common fuse or breaker opens circuit*
* Contact with 20 milliamps of current can be fatal. As a frame of reference, a common household circuit breaker may be rated at 15, 20, or 30 amps.
The bad thing is, AFTER a hit from an electrical circuit, you won't know the damage it did INSIDE of you, since the body is a conductor. You can sustain internal injuries and burns and die hours later even tough you feel fine.
It's some crazy stuff....
A good reason to make it a habit to:
1) Check circuits where you gig
2) If not wireless, use a meter to check voltage between your bass strings/metal parts and mikes/mike stands
3) Make plug in connections with one hand. Holding a metal cord that is grounded and plugging into something improperly grounded can give you the same zap.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FUNNY about this.
Getting accidentally killed is not funny.
Electricity does not discriminate....
A similar event happened to me at 10 years old while using my Dad's METAL soldering iron on a concrete floor barefoot. As soon as I pushed to "ON" button, I tasted iron and got the <expletive deleted> knocked out of me. The circuit was through my right hand and out my feet. Not a pleasant experience.
PS:
Did technician school in the 70's/80's, college for electrical engineering 1985~1989.
Safety training was part of both.
1) Check circuits where you gig
2) If not wireless, use a meter to check voltage between your bass strings/metal parts and mikes/mike stands
3) Make plug in connections with one hand. Holding a metal cord that is grounded and plugging into something improperly grounded can give you the same zap.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FUNNY about this.
Getting accidentally killed is not funny.
Electricity does not discriminate....
A similar event happened to me at 10 years old while using my Dad's METAL soldering iron on a concrete floor barefoot. As soon as I pushed to "ON" button, I tasted iron and got the <expletive deleted> knocked out of me. The circuit was through my right hand and out my feet. Not a pleasant experience.
PS:
Did technician school in the 70's/80's, college for electrical engineering 1985~1989.
Safety training was part of both.
http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Cable-Extension-Tri-Source-Indicator/dp/B00004SQGT
Only helps if ALL your stage gear, including the board for the mics, is powered through one of these. And make sure it's tested about once a month.
Only helps if ALL your stage gear, including the board for the mics, is powered through one of these. And make sure it's tested about once a month.
As an Amazon Associate, TalkBass may receive commissions from qualifying purchases made via links on this site.
Mods, may I recommend this thread as an addition to the Pickups & Electronics FAQ? All of us electric players need to be constantly aware of these potential dangers....
great idea...
at the chemical plant where I'm an Electrical and Instrumentation Engineer, no one is allowed to perform work with power tools unless they run through either a plant power outlet (all of which are fitted with residual current device (RCD) breakers), or if they are using a portable generator, the generator is properly earthed and also fitted with RCD's...
We perform functional tests on all our RCD's twice a year, and extensive test (using calibrated equipment) once a year.
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From 110v...I don't think so. Unless the amp was passing it's load through his body...(which I guess it could have been)
It can take as little as 0.1 ampre of current across the chest to stop the heart, I have been hit with more but that is what they teach us in school, (electronics school that is). In any rate I am glad that Brendanbass and the rest of us that have been shocked by such a situation are still around to play. Thanks for opening up this discussion, some great information was given to the readers by those who posted.
I've been electrocuted more times than I care to remember. All from doing stuff for my job that I shouldn't be doing. It sucks, but I'm still alive...and I've been hit by pretty amounts.
You are right though...it doesn't take much to stop you!!!
