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Blown tweeter: a question...

IMHO

I am a founding member of BAT.

Bassists Against Tweeters.

What good are they for basses? Hmm, they sound great in the store but get lost when playin' with the band... worse, they actually clutter up the HF content and impede the guitar and drums... don't believe me? Try playing with the band with them on, then turn it off... The band will suddenly sound that much better.

I firmly believe they were introduced to help sell cabs in stores, not for performance. Ampeg has an interesting take... they use dual concentric drivers in the 8x10H (or whatever it's called)...

This is all IMHO, as a bass player that has been tweeter free for 15 years and counting.

Jb
 
That would be a coaxial driver. It's still a tweeter, it's just located in the center of a speaker where the dust cap would normally be.

You've probably never played through a cab with a really high quality tweeter. Tweets typically used in bass and PA cabs are of the metal diaphragm, compression horn type. They're built to be loud and durable, not for sound quality. You will never find this type of tweeter in a decent stereo speaker, because they don't sound very good.

Speakers built for sound quality use a number of different types of tweets; ribbon, planar, and soft dome are all common. Ribbon and planar tweeters sound really nice but they're delicate and don't handle much power. Soft dome tweeters (also called textile or silk dome) can be had with decent power handling capabilities, and if they're horn-loaded, they're efficient enough for use in bass and PA duty.

And they sound way, WAY better than compression horns. They do cost more, although not all that much more.

About the only production bass cabs that I know of that use dome tweeters are Accugroove and Acme.

A good tweeter doesn't sound like a tweeter; it blends seamlessly with the other speakers, so you get smooth, unobtrusive high end. When you play a bass cab with the typical Foster/Fostex horn, unobtrusive is the LAST thing that comes to mind.

It's also important that a tweeter be crossed over at the correct frequency. Too low, you'll blow the tweeter; too high, and you get a gap in your frequency response. Most bass cabs with a Foster horn are crossed over too high, usually around 5k; very few woofers can do anything above 3~4k, so you get a pretty big hole in the frequency response. And that is exactly what those cabs sound like - lows plus some sizzling highs layed on top, nothing in the middle.

I find high frequencies really critical for note definition. Even with the best woofers, by themselves, it can get pretty hard to tell the difference between a low C and C# (it ain't my basses - Modulus and Dingwall). A good tweeter makes a big difference. You don't really notice the tweeter's sound by itself, it just kind of clarifies the notes.

I was tweeter-free for nearly 20 years. Never was happy with the lack of clarity. Then I started using some PA cabs that had compression horns. Very clear sounding, but no amount of tweaking would get the high end sounding just right. I could get close, but it'd still be either inaudible or still have that harsh quality. When Accugroove came out, I saw they were using soft domes; they use a pair in order to get adequate efficiency. I was planning a 2x10 to biamp with a 1x18, and started looking at dome tweeters, intending to use a pair like Accugroove does. THEN I ran across the particular Peerless tweeter I recomended earlier. It's got good power handling, adequate efficiency, and it goes a lot lower than most tweeters (down to 1k) so it's easy to crossover with nearly any woofer. No need for a midrange. Gave it a try, and it's a beautiful thing...........
 
GrapeBass said:
IMHO

I am a founding member of BAT.

Bassists Against Tweeters.

What good are they for basses? Hmm, they sound great in the store but get lost when playin' with the band... worse, they actually clutter up the HF content and impede the guitar and drums... don't believe me? Try playing with the band with them on, then turn it off... The band will suddenly sound that much better.

I firmly believe they were introduced to help sell cabs in stores, not for performance. Ampeg has an interesting take... they use dual concentric drivers in the 8x10H (or whatever it's called)...

This is all IMHO, as a bass player that has been tweeter free for 15 years and counting.

Jb
I'm the president of BABAT. Bassist against Bassists Against Tweeters :)

We're going to have to agree to diasgree. I went tweeterless for the first 8 years of my playing career and I would never go back to that. I even prefer a harsh piezo over no tweeter at all. I intend to try a silk dome next..........
 
GrapeBass said:
IMHO

I am a founding member of BAT.

Bassists Against Tweeters.

What good are they for basses? Hmm, they sound great in the store but get lost when playin' with the band... worse, they actually clutter up the HF content and impede the guitar and drums... don't believe me? Try playing with the band with them on, then turn it off... The band will suddenly sound that much better.

I firmly believe they were introduced to help sell cabs in stores, not for performance. Ampeg has an interesting take... they use dual concentric drivers in the 8x10H (or whatever it's called)...

This is all IMHO, as a bass player that has been tweeter free for 15 years and counting.

Jb

Well the thing is that I've been using a tweeterless cab for last few weeks and it's ok for most things but when I slap the "pops" get lost. Also, my intended bass tone is punchy with high frequency definition (rather than old school thud) so a tweeter means less drastic eq'ing.

I got the materials for the job yesterday. I'll post when its done and put a picture up to! Thanks fellas.
 
When Accugroove came out, I saw they were using soft domes; they use a pair in order to get adequate efficiency.

Three things I really hate:

1. Brittle & harsh compression horns.
2. Blown speakers.
3. Speaker fuses & bulbs.

Every company may or may not deal with these issues, but here’s how we addressed them.

We use soft textile dome neodymium tweeters with Ferro fluid for the purest sound & greatest reliability. All the highs while sounding completely natural.

With self-resetting circuit breakers on the mid 6" & the tweeters, there are no blown speakers. If there’s a problem with to much power, they’ll shut that driver down (independent of the others) & then turn them back on automatically in about 10 seconds.

No blown tweeters, no fuse or bulbs & no harsh highs…ever!

Mark
AccuGroove.com
 
Getting started...

000_0001.jpg


Used 1/4" plywood to make cutting easier (had to use a hand saw - no table or scroll saw)

000_0003.jpg


I didn't take pictures of the attenuator or capacitor but that was a simple transplant operation.

Finished product...

000_0007.jpg


All put together....

000_0010.jpg
 
I will post something more about the sound after band practice. I tested it with my high powered system today and there was more hiss than I experienced with my little GK combo (not surprisingly), but still less hiss than the Foster at the same volume. The Peerless tweeter is alot louder than I originally expected - should have no trouble cutting through. The most distinguishing feature about this mod is what Bruce talked about...this tweeter sounds like another speaker and not like an "add on". It really livens up the sound!! When I turn it off, the cab sounds dead in comparison. More to come after tonight's rehearsal.
 
Thanks guys. It WAS a happy solution because I had fun doing it. :)

I used the cab at practice tonight - it performed like a champ! I am still excited by how this tweeter blends well with the other speakers, and with the attenuator about half way up I got crystal, penetrating highs that sounded like a natural extension of the woofers. The high end sounds quite punchy and lively after playing through a tweeter-less cab for a few weeks. I certainly prefer the sound of the new tweeter over the old. It's less harsh and "separate" as the old one was. BUT I think this also has to do with the fact I am using a capacitor with a crossover point that is lower than the avatar one. This lower crossover probably creates more "overlap" in frequency response than I had before.

I'm very happy with the results. Special thanks to BillyB and especially to BruceWane for the GREAT advice.
 
What value capacitor did you use?

Now you've got me thinking...I have a pair of the matching midranges (the Moskowitz mids). My pair of home built 1x10s (PAS woofer, Fostex tweeter in a half Goliath II Jr. sized box) have a typical SWR scoop in their tone...I could move the port to the back and make them 3 ways....hmmmmm. :hyper:
 
I'd better make it clear to anyone following this thread that you SHOULD NOT try using the capacitor I recommended to Schwinn with a Foster horn. It'd be WAY too low for that tweeter, so it'd probably blow it in 60 seconds or less.

It's not hard to figure crossover points and the components you need to get them; the important thing is that it all MUST be matched to the specific speakers/tweeters you are using.
 
Schwinn said:
The new capacitor I used was somewhat bigger than the one you see there. Also I used electrical tape to secure it to the plate. I didn't have all that glue on mine! :confused:

That's either silicone or hot glue. I use hot glue. Although I don't actually encase anything it it......I just make a nice little puddle with the glue gun and set the capacitor on it.
 
It's hot glue...no rubber-like properties at all. I use silicone because I'm too lazy to look for the hot glue gun.

Dave has an outside firm make his input cups. He used to use Switchcraft jacks (in '02 anyway) but the latest offerings are made off shore. I asked him about that and he said that he gets what his supplier uses.

Personally, I'd spend the extra pennies for Switchcraft jacks. I'm glad that the '04 cabinets now include a Speakon in addition to a pair of 1/4 in. phone jacks.

Brucewane, thanks for mentioning the relationship between tweeter and crossover frequency. I'm quite aware of it, but it's always good to mention.

On a related subject...www.madisound.com also carries the 811647. It's a few pennies more ($22.45 vs. $22.30) but it also appears that they sell replacement diaphrams for just $6.55 if you did happen to blow one.