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Blue Bossa

You've answered your own question though.

Like i said, b5, not #11

you could use the same example with a phrigian dominant chord, b9b13. Its sepcifically indicates a falttened 13, NOT a sharp 5, hence, you would use a phrygian dominant scale(natural 5) instead of an altered scale.

Maybe if i had of said whenever you see a #5, a #11 will usually be implied

and

When you see a b5 a b13 will usually be implied

And yup, it all relates back to the altered scale, as most of those exotically tensioned dominat chords are derived from there.
 
I wasn't asking a question...merely stating facts ;)

Can't say I've run into G7b5 anytime in the recent past... mostly because it's common practice to either notate that chord as
G7 #11, or something like G7 #11(no5), if you'd want to be more specific. IME, b5 is associated with minor chords and #11 with major and dominant, because of the scales that go with these specific chords.

/lovebown
 
Agreed that the b5 example is a much rarer one, but they are out there. 'Beautiful love' is one tune that i can think of at the moment that has one. Just because it is rare though, doesnt mean that the rule doesnt apply. Its only realy a guide for the newbs though, because its pretty much common sense, because the minute you see a b5 dominant, you'd think Alt. The only condition that i can think of that the b5 example might'nt be set in stone, is if the chord was constructed from an octatonic scale, which 'could' make a (b5 13) chord, but due to the presence of the natural 5 in the scale, 99.99% of the time it'd be signalled as a (#11 13) chord.



Same thing applys with 9ths
 
Ok, I see your point, but the fact remains that there is no "b5" in the superlocrian (altered) scale...or in any other jazz dominant scale. This reversing thing you speak of works for b9s and #9 s but is not a good idea to use of when dealing with altered 5ths, as there are other +5th chords that don't include a b5 unless notated so specifically ( like Gm7+5 for instance)
- and this will probably cause confusion much more than anything else. To conclude my point I'll repeat, b5 belongs to Minor (and possibly major) chords, and #11 belongs to dominant chords.

And no, I've never seen 'Beautiful Love' notated with any dominant 7b5 chords....
/lovebown
 
I disagree about there being no flat five in the altered scale...


Ive seen in quite a few books(possibly even the berklee one) showing the altered scale being constructed as

1 b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7 .......though, to write it with a #11 would also be right, MORE right even

If it was a +5 chord, the b5 would be singaled as a #11 100% of the time. The flat 5 chord is very rare

The point is ....if you see a G7#11, you may think, lydian dominant, or altered etc .......But if you see G7b5, imo, it can only be altered.

You cant say that these chords dont exist, because quite frankly, that is a false statement.

This reversing thing you speak of works for b9s and #9 s but is not a good idea to use of when dealing with altered 5ths, as there are other +5th chords that don't include a b5

Name one..............It only applies to dominant chords ......i thought that was pretty clear, but maybe it wasnt.



this is turning into a pizzing contest :p

lets just agree to disagree
 
Slot said:
The point is ....if you see a G7#11, you may think, lydian dominant, or altered etc .......But if you see G7b5, imo, it can only be altered.

You cant say that these chords dont exist, because quite frankly, that is a false statement.
The chord G7#11 is the 4th mode of melodic minor
G7 alt. is the 7th mode of melodic minor
and G7b9 and #9 is diminished harmony....
But can you explain, what scale goes with the G7b5 chord???

/lovebown
 
The chord G7#11 is the 4th mode of melodic minor
G7 alt. is the 7th mode of melodic minor
and G7b9 and #9 is diminished harmony....
But can you explain, what scale goes with the G7b5 chord???

You guys lost me a long while back! ..but I'm still here.. . more the fool me perhaps?!


All those chords could be covered by G altered scale surely?

Why wouldn't you play G7alt or G diminished over G7b5?

Or, wouldnt just plain old G whole tone go nicely with G7b5?
 
Altered.........

Just because it doesnt have (alt) next to the symbol, doesnt mean that it cant be related back to the altered scale....

Many times you will see, for example, G7(#5#9), which would also be related back to altered. Or maybe G7(#5#11) which could also be seen as G7(b5b13) = altered.

But just seeing G7b5 alone doesnt tell me much...Because it may be that the composer is ignorant to #11's, so i'd definitely check the melody note 1st. Usually when ive seen the flat 5 utilised its as a, say, G7(b5b13)


I know what you were getting at though. It is very rare to see a b5 used in a dominant chord, the vast majority of time they will be written as some kind of #11 extension. Even i follow the rule that you are implieing. But these chords do exist, i clearly remember studying them in a theory class at uni.

btw ....sorry if my tone comes across as bad, dude. Its hard to express yourself on these keyboard things without coming across as an ass.
 
Good questions
Howard K said:
Why wouldn't you play G7alt or G diminished over G7b5?
Well you could play Altered over it, but the reason that the diminished scale wouldnt work is because of the presence of the natural 5.

Seem asthough the natural 5 is a strong and "natural" chord tone, and basically a set building block for the chord, it pretty much guarantee's that the C# is going to be signalled as a #11

Or, wouldnt just plain old G whole tone go nicely with G7b5?
Yup, correct ....nice work, i forgot about that one.


The main reason, IMO, that makes these 2 chord scales applicable for the b5 dominant, is because there is no natural 5 in the chord scale, hence, the chordal quality of the 5th is open to interpretation.

They have a b5 and a #5 ........So depending on what 5th you want your chord based around, the chosen 5th will change the "quality" of the other note

So just say we're in G. If you signal'd a #5 in the chord, the C#(Or Db if you've signaled it as the flat fith) would become a #11.

Whereas if you signal'd a b5 dominant of some kind, the Eb(or D# if you signal'd as a sharp 5th) would become a b13.

Its pretty rare though, most composers wouldnt touch it
 
Lovebown said:
I wasn't asking a question...merely stating facts ;)

Can't say I've run into G7b5 anytime in the recent past... mostly because it's common practice to either notate that chord as
G7 #11, or something like G7 #11(no5), if you'd want to be more specific. IME, b5 is associated with minor chords and #11 with major and dominant, because of the scales that go with these specific chords.

/lovebown

I guess you haven't come across the charts for: "Nefertiti", "Monks Mood", "Hallucinations", "Bouncin' With Bud", "Naima", and many others that have chords notated as 7b5 and Maj7b5.
 
Phil Smith said:
I guess you haven't come across the charts for: "Nefertiti", "Monks Mood", "Hallucinations", "Bouncin' With Bud", "Naima", and many others that have chords notated as 7b5 and Maj7b5.

Just because these chords are written down that way in for instance the Real book.. doesen't make them right. I suppose there are diffrent views here on this issue, but my opinion is that you should try to use as chord symbols that serve to confuse as little as possible. Exactly what kind of melodic possibilities does a 7b5 offer? As far as I know it's not derrived from any particular scale nor mode. Are there any other altered tones other than the b5 in the scale that goes with this chord?

I took a peak at the realbook variant of Naima and I did at one spot see a 7b5 chord that in my opinion could have been written as 7#11 with greater effect.

The only time I could imagine where a 7b5 chord can be used is where the specified harmony calls for a natural 11th, "b5th" and NO natural 5th. This kind of harmony is sort of rare though and can probably be written some other way too...

/lovebown
 
Lovebown said:
The only time I could imagine where a 7b5 chord can be used is where the specified harmony calls for a natural 11th, "b5th" and NO natural 5th. This kind of harmony is sort of rare though and can probably be written some other way too..
/lovebown
a natural 11th is actually an avoid tone in just about any chord that contains a major 3rd. There is no way that you would play a 4th anywhere near these exotic dominants.

to indicate a b5 is to indiciate a specific voicing. Its indicating that the composer wants the tritione voiced moreso in the bass register than the upper, to give it a specific sound

1 3 b5 b7 or similar

To indicate a #11

1 3 5 7 9 #11 ....not that you'd really ever voice it that straight though

As far as I know it's not derrived from any particular scale nor mode.
altered or wholetone, depending on the 9th.

and lydian augmented(3rd mode, melodic minor) for Maj7b5 chords
 
Lovebown said:
Just because these chords are written down that way in for instance the Real book.. doesen't make them right. I suppose there are diffrent views here on this issue, but my opinion is that you should try to use as chord symbols that serve to confuse as little as possible. Exactly what kind of melodic possibilities does a 7b5 offer? As far as I know it's not derrived from any particular scale nor mode. Are there any other altered tones other than the b5 in the scale that goes with this chord?

The tunes I listed are from "The New Real Book" not the "The Real Book".
 
Slot said:
a natural 11th is actually an avoid tone in just about any chord that contains a major 3rd. There is no way that you would play a 4th anywhere near these exotic dominants.

to indicate a b5 is to indiciate a specific voicing. Its indicating that the composer wants the tritione voiced moreso in the bass register than the upper, to give it a specific sound

1 3 b5 b7 or similar

To indicate a #11

1 3 5 7 9 #11 ....not that you'd really ever voice it that straight though

The thing is if you write out something like 7b5, you're specifically calling for NO natural 5th. The 7#11 chord symbol means there is a 5th in the chord/scale , but it will most often be ommited in the voicing of the chordalist.

And as you say the natural 11th is an avoid tone on most dominants (except for suspended ones) but by writing G7b5 you do mean that the 11th IS included but the #11ths is not! Thus the only reason I can come up with why you'd want to write it like that would be for the natural 11th AND b5(#11th) to be played and/or voiced.

/lovebown
 
Lovebown said:
but by writing G7b5 you do mean that the 11th IS included but the #11ths is not!

Not true at all. G7b5 means just what it says. It does not say anything at all about an 11th, natural or sharped. Higher chordal extensions may automatically imply lower extensions, but the reverse is not true. All G7 really implies is that the natural 5 is not used.

BTW, I think you're oversimplifying by suggesting that a chord has to be derived from a scale or mode. (Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's what it sometimes sounds like to me.) Sometimes the problem in improvising is the opposite: not what chord do I put with this scale, but what scale(s) can I use with this chord. As you know, often several different scales/modes can be used over the same chord. There isn't a 1:1 correspondence between scales/modes and chords. So to argue that a 7b5 shouldn't be used in major harmony because you can't find the flat 5 in the altered scale doesn't add up IMO. For one thing, who says you "have to" play the altered scale over that chord? And how would you propose to notate G7b5 in a way that would make it clear that the natural 5 is not present? G7#11 (no 5)? If so, why would that be better? Seems clunkier to me.
 
Richard Lindsey said:
Not true at all. G7b5 means just what it says. It does not say anything at all about an 11th, natural or sharped. Higher chordal extensions may automatically imply lower extensions, but the reverse is not true. All G7 really implies is that the natural 5 is not used.

In a corresponding scale I meant, not in the voicing for the chord. Since there is obviously no #11 (rendnudant with the use of b5), there has to be a natural 11 included , although it can be a so called avoid note.
Richard Lindsey said:
BTW, I think you're oversimplifying by suggesting that a chord has to be derived from a scale or mode. (Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's what it sometimes sounds like to me.) Sometimes the problem in improvising is the opposite: not what chord do I put with this scale, but what scale(s) can I use with this chord. As you know, often several different scales/modes can be used over the same chord. There isn't a 1:1 correspondence between scales/modes and chords. So to argue that a 7b5 shouldn't be used in major harmony because you can't find the flat 5 in the altered scale doesn't add up IMO. For one thing, who says you "have to" play the altered scale over that chord? And how would you propose to notate G7b5 in a way that would make it clear that the natural 5 is not present? G7#11 (no 5)? If so, why would that be better? Seems clunkier to me.

Well... of course I wouldn't use the altered scale (assuming I want to be tonally inside the harmony) on a G7b5 chord since it's not at all coming from the melodic minor scale (7th mode of mm - superlocrian/diminished whole-tone/altered scale)!

I do actually think that a G7#11 (no 5) is a better notation for the improviser than G7b5, because with the first option the improviser will immediatly know that the 4th mode of the melodic minor , with an ommited natural 5th, will be "right". If the same person sees G7b5, I think he's likely to be confused about what alterations are implied inside that harmony. Since G7b5 (as far as I know) can't be derived from a particular scale, and is not really a common chord in jazz, there is really no practical way to know which scale corresponds with that chords, imo.

/lovebown
 
Lovebown said:
I do actually think that a G7#11 (no 5) is a better notation for the improviser than G7b5, because with the first option the improviser will immediatly know that the 4th mode of the melodic minor , with an ommited natural 5th, will be "right".

{But see, this is the problem--who says that mode is "right"? Why shouldn't I see a G7b5 and play a whole tone scale or an altered scale, either of which will include G B/Cb F A? You're assuming that when somebody writes G7b5 in a major key, you're "supposed to" play lydian dominant, because they really meant G7#11 no 5. What basis is there for assuming that?}

If the same person sees G7b5, I think he's likely to be confused about what alterations are implied inside that harmony.

{There isn't one set of alterations that are implied by that chord, or ANY 7th chord for that matter. That's one reason people often just write 7 on charts--they leave it up to the player to figure out what alterations to play. That's not confusion, that's being open-ended and trusting the player.}

Since G7b5 (as far as I know) can't be derived from a particular scale

{How about the whole tone scale? And who says a chord has to be derived from any scale? But in any case, a lot of jazz works not by technical correctness but through enharmonic equivalence. You mentioned the 7th mode of the mm. Technically, there is no natural 3 in that mode. If you take that mode from G to G, it goes G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G. But that doesn't stop us from making that Cb function like a B over a G dominant chord.}

and is not really a common chord in jazz,

{Not true in my experience. As Phil pointed out, the Sher Real Books--which IMO are vastly better edited than the Real Book and any other fake books I know of--are full of thing. Consider also that many, if not most, of the Sher charts were reviewed if possible with the composers and thus are more likely (albeit not certain) to reflect the composers' intentions and practice than the average fake book would be.}

there is really no practical way to know which scale corresponds with that chords, imo.

{Sure there is. First, there can be more than one scale, depending on what you're trying to do. IMHO it's not always so much about finding the one scale that works as it is about knowing what the possibilities are and how they would sound. Second, just listen to the rest of the piece! A chord doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's coming from somewhere and going somewhere. }

/lovebown
 
Your theory on the G7b5 is not really making sense to me.
First you say the chord is nothing more than what it says, a dominant 7th chord with a b5, on the other hand , you're saying that you can imply very many diffrent alterations (in terms of voicings, melodies played over). But since the chord isn't derrived from any scale, there is no set standard. It could practically be the same thing as G7#11, G7altered or something else.

This to me seems limiting in terms of voicings and so forth. How is the pianist to know if he's going to voice his extensions if there is virtually no information given on the non-chord tones in the scale?

And saying that there are no alterations implied in certain chord symbols is just false...an experienced jazz players who sees a G7+9 for instance will not have +9 as the only alteration.
Listening "to the rest of the piece" is not really going to help me very much with a dominant, much less an ambigous one.

/lovebown