Blues Rules (not a joke thread...)

[dlb1001]

Wow. Threads like this remind me why I am terrified of playing with other people. I enjoy the blues, enjoy playing it. But I have absolutely no idea what Beat 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or whatever means, nor do I know what 10 or 11 or 12 bars means.

And I would be petrified to ask.
(and this is not a joke post, either)

I was, when I first started out. Fortunately, I had a teacher, who helped me a lot. Also, I got to play with people, who were at the same level of experience, which helps. I made a lot of mistakes but I learned.
Active listening helps a lot, not just recordings but actually watching and listening to live bands. After some time, I started to hear (or feel) the chord changes, without having to sit there count them.

 

[Nev375]

You'll never make a name for yourself trying to be like somebody else.

I don't know where he learned that "rule" but he needs to start making his own.

I mean what? Does he think the blues cops going to come arrest him?

 

[brianrost]

I think the concept of leaving space in bar 12 for a pickup phrase by the vocalist or the next soloist is pretty well understood by now

The comment about Miles Davis starting and ending phrases wherever he wanted is commonplace in jazz, in fact it is expected in most cases.

There are no rules in any kind of music, including the blues...there's just common practices and exceptions to those practices.

 

[Wesley R]

Once a BL explained to me (kindly) that there is no walking bass lines in Blues music, just solid root notes.

That band or version of that band never got off the ground.

 

[JRA]

I speak fluent singer. Allow me to translate:
I want to give the singer the benefit of the doubt, that indeed there are certain blues "turnarounds" and standard phrases that guitarists use, to signal to the rest of the band that they are done soloing. If the singer previously worked with guitarists who have a good vocabulary of the stock, cliche blues turnarounds, but this guitarist is lacking in that department, then I can kind of understand the singer's point of view.

i think you make a fair point, but by making it: sounds like the singer may be lacking in his own abilities if he doesn't know when to play/sing his own part... he doesn't know what to do without the "stock, cliche blues turnarounds."

I've never heard of such a thing

bless his heart...

 

[mexicanyella]

I think I may have heard some solo ending licks ending on the 2, but I sure never counted it or noticed it as a convention until you brought it up. Pretty sure I’ve also heard blues solos end on the 1, the 4, the 3-19/64...

...The idea of a rule-spouting “blues man” with a rep for not being able to drive a Volvo...actual LOL. That’s just surreal.

 

[lfmn16]

On the bright side, now you know he's full of &$^%, doesn't know what he's talking about, and you can feel free to ignore everything else out of his mouth.

 

[Zootsuitbass]

To think of them as "rules" is silly at best.

Playing over the bar line is a more "advanced" tendency and it seems these rules "encourage" (where is my whip??) that.

That said if you do this every time it sounds predictable and stale...although possibly better than starting all events on the down beat...

Variation is the spice of life!

D

 

[LBS-bass]

Once a BL explained to me (kindly) that there is no walking bass lines in Blues music, just solid root notes.

That band or version of that band never got off the ground.

There isn't much jazz-style walking in blues that I can hear. It's mostly rote arpeggiating with some turnarounds. The blues bands I've played in all want to hear the same patterns in the bass over and over again, rather than actual walking. It's one of the reasons I'm not keen to play the blues that much.

Now, having said that, it's not like this is a rule. I've played with blues players (the better ones) who don't care what I do behind them, as long as it swings and doesn't distract from the rest of the music. But most of them really want a solid signature bass line that's often established by the guitar at the start of the song.

Think for a minute about "Born Under a Bad Sign." There's really only one way to play that song.

 

[Yellow Bang66]

Working with a wanna-be blues band with a singer/guitar who loves to overthink everything and seems to believe you just gotta follow the formula to be successful...

We're auditioning a new guitar guy and in the consultation, singer guy says he didn't like how the candidate "didn't end on Beat 2." 'What?' I inquire....

" Never (rarely) start a solo on beat one, usually it is a done on beat 3 or 4
of 12th bar as a pickup.
End your solo on beat 2 of the 12 bar for a transition/or ending to get back
to vocals/ending riff. "

I've never heard of such a thing - I have no idea where he got it. Is this really some unspoken rule of soloing that I've never heard nor consciously observed?

This is why I'm a Rock & Roll Bass Player, Aint no Fing Rules! in Rock! accept, Break All the Rules Rule!

 

[BBQisgood]

Working with a wanna-be blues band with a singer/guitar who loves to overthink everything and seems to believe you just gotta follow the formula to be successful...

We're auditioning a new guitar guy and in the consultation, singer guy says he didn't like how the candidate "didn't end on Beat 2." 'What?' I inquire....

" Never (rarely) start a solo on beat one, usually it is a done on beat 3 or 4
of 12th bar as a pickup.
End your solo on beat 2 of the 12 bar for a transition/or ending to get back
to vocals/ending riff. "

I've never heard of such a thing - I have no idea where he got it. Is this really some unspoken rule of soloing that I've never heard nor consciously observed?

 

[BucketOfFish]

Sounds to me like sInGer gUY needs to hear the solo end on the one so he can find the next "one" to come in on. That is, after all, how you can tell when a singer is at your front door. They don't have the right key and they don't know when to come in .
Seriously though, if a soloist is going for another round they should pump it up and make it apparent or end it by optionally winding it down so it slides under the incoming sIngER stAr. Or just end it on one o' those random numbers, like 3 e & a, 4 &.

"Learn the rules thoroughly so that you may break them properly." - Dalai Lama

 

[Dynacord]

There isn't much jazz-style walking in blues that I can hear. It's mostly rote arpeggiating with some turnarounds.

I think of much (not all) of the older Bobby Bland and T-bone Walker stuff... Even Duck's playing on the Blue Brother's version of Sweet Home Chicago. The same approach can be applied to many different tunes, especially slow blues - obviously not so much on the riff based stuff like Bad Sign, it's true.

One of my favorite blues 'bass' albums is Jimmy Smith's "The Sermon" - master class in blues walking bass (though kicked on B3).

 

[BucketOfFish]

The irony of this is that I have lived "the blues". I have literally lived through times when I lost my job, my woman done left me (actuallyshe had an affair with my drummer), ain't got no money, AND my car won't start. During those times I stayed up drinking all night and woke up about the crack of mid afternoon. I never woke up "this morning" with the blues. I woke up this AFTERNOON with the blues.... and a hangover.

Ya, that's rough but, did the dog sh!t on the floor and did you step init barefoot, signaling the beginning of a really bad day?

 

[two fingers]

Ya, that's rough but, did the dog sh!t on the floor and did you step init barefoot, signaling the beginning of a really bad day?

Is that in a song????

If that happened to me it would he a really bad day for the dog.

 

[pigpen ridding]

ive been playing dirty blues with the same 2 friends for over 40 yrs and ive never heard of that

 

[BucketOfFish]

Is that in a song????

If that happened to me it would he a really bad day for the dog.

not a direct quote... Keb Mo...The Worst Is Yet To Come

 

[LBS-bass]

I think of much (not all) of the older Bobby Bland and T-bone Walker stuff... Even Duck's playing on the Blue Brother's version of Sweet Home Chicago. The same approach can be applied to many different tunes, especially slow blues - obviously not so much on the riff based stuff like Bad Sign, it's true.

One of my favorite blues 'bass' albums is Jimmy Smith's "The Sermon" - master class in blues walking bass (though kicked on B3).

Yes there's some older stuff out there which is infused with walking bass in the jazz traditions; I think that blues as an offshoot of jazz has serious roots in that, but there is a lot of pattern-centric stuff that sounds like walking but it is not in any way improvisational. Example- your classic 1-3-5-6-b7-6-5-3 twice, and then to that same pattern on the 4 chord, then back to that pattern on the 1, then on the 5 chord, etc. That stuff sounds walk-ish, but there's no real improv within the pattern to figure out how to get to the next chord. It's always the same pattern.

There are similar left-hand patterns in boogie-woogie piano and blues pianists use them, as well. I prefer being given license to explore the fretboard a little more but often I'm called to task for it when I deviate from the script. If I can't deviate from the script with improvised lines, that's not walking (to my way of interpreting it) so much as just stringing together arpeggios with quarter notes or eighth notes, depending.

 

[Paul New]

The other question for me: Is it a quick 4?

And this kind of reminds me of sax players saying "That's not how Coltrane played it"

Except that sax players never say that.

 

[LBS-bass]

Sounds to me like sInGer gUY needs to hear the solo end on the one so he can find the next "one" to come in on. That is, after all, how you can tell when

This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine; my earliest experiences working with a guitarist taught me that there will (or should) always be a signature lick that signals "I'm done." You use the Rule of Four to know when to come in. That is, the first time he plays that lick is one, he plays it over three more measures or bars of whatever it is and then EVERYONE knows it's time to move to the bridge, or whatever. Visual cues were never needed.

So yes, there are things that people do to signal with their music, and understanding them is really as easy as having a conversation. Understand the audible cue and understand the rule of four. That's really all you ever need. It's not one. It's not three. It's never an odd number. And if your singer doesn't come in when he's supposed to just go around four more times until he does. Never force it.