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body wood does matter

Fiew things to think about, maybe..:cigar:

The main argument people have about the tonewood is that it vibrates, right? right..

At the same time that is main mistake, because everything in this world vibrates, but don't necessarily makes the sound. that we can

The Earth vibrates but we can't hear it. The bridges, the trees, your hair..
Our body vibrates, but we can't detect it.
It's a matter of human biology and physic.

Just as people can not fly, so they can not even hear some frequencies, no matter how big ears (or head) (or money) they have, right? Right..

As for the guitar, it isn't the wood that transfers vibrations to the strings - it is the opposite.
The strings are the most important part of our guitars (pianos, and fishing rods..).
You first hit the string (even with a very light touch), and it vibrates.
If you'd want to make string vibrates in a way that you hit the wood first - you'd have to hit it very, very hard.

A simple fact that strings are transfering vibrations to the wood around them has nothing to do with the colour of their tone, and in respect of "sustain" the wood itself can only make the sustain lasting shorter, because when we have two things (the strings and the wood) that are vibrating in different way, and can only have the opposite effect where one vibration fights another one. Like two waves fighting eachother and crushing.

You see, the construction of a guitar and the way it's put together has way more impact on the sound itself then the kind of wood. Try to separate the bolt on neck of the body just a little and listen what's happening. On the other hand, try to cut off a chunk of wood from the body (with the neck firmly attached where it was) and listen what is not happening.

When people are comparing two guitars (in order to hear some difference) must have in mind the must important point. And it's not the wood, it's the place where strings touch the guitar (nut slots, saddles, string trees, tuners)

Only a fraction of a millimeter in the nut slot is sufficient to kill the vibrations, or to make a string vibrating more freely.
Position of guitar (keep in mind the gravity), number of windings on the tuning machine (tension of the string) etc...these are all micro details but with great impact on the strings.

But those details are not so obvious, in realtion to the wood which we can feel with our body and immediately think that everything happens there.
But It's like an illusion, because even our body leaning on guitar has its part in whole "construction" matter and plays some role there, especially with acoustic instruments.
 
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Fiew things to think about, maybe..:cigar:

The main argument people have about the tonewood is that it vibrates, right? right..

At the same time that is main mistake, because everything in this world vibrates, but don't necessarily makes the sound. that we can

The Earth vibrates but we can't hear it. The bridges, the trees, your hair..
Our body vibrates, but we can't detect it.
It's a matter of human biology and physic.

Just as people can not fly, so they can not even hear some frequencies, no matter how big ears (or head) (or money) they have, right? Right..

As for the guitar, it isn't the wood that transfers vibrations to the strings - it is the opposite.
The strings are the most important part of our guitars (pianos, and fishing rods..).
You first hit the string (even with a very light touch), and it vibrates.
If you'd want to make string vibrates in a way that you hit the wood first - you'd have to hit it very, very hard.

A simple fact that strings are transfering vibrations to the wood around them has nothing to do with the colour of their tone, and in respect of "sustain" the wood itself can only make the sustain lasting shorter, because when we have two things (the strings and the wood) that are vibrating in different way, and can only have the opposite effect where one vibration fights another one. Like two waves fighting eachother and crushing.

You see, the construction of a guitar and the way it's put together has way more impact on the sound itself then the kind of wood. Try to separate the bolt on neck of the body just a little and listen what's happening. On the other hand, try to cut off a chunk of wood from the body (with the neck firmly attached where it was) and listen what is not happening.

When people are comparing two guitars (in order to hear some difference) must have in mind the must important point. And it's not the wood, it's the place where strings touch the guitar (nut slots, saddles, string trees, tuners)

Only a fraction of a millimeter in the nut slot is sufficient to kill the vibrations, or to make a string vibrating more freely.
Position of guitar (keep in mind the gravity), number of windings on the tuning machine (tension of the string) etc...these are all micro details but with great impact on the strings.

But those details are not so obvious, in realtion to the wood which we can feel with our body and immediately think that everything happens there.
But It's like an illusion, because even our body leaning on guitar has its part in whole "construction" matter and plays some role there, especially with acoustic instruments.
OK, but please read @Turnaround’s post #374 for a rather clear explanation of the interaction between the strings and the supporting materials. They are coupled. The strings do not vibrate independently of the response of the body and neck materials. If such were true, there would be no “dead spots.” Wouldn’t that be awesome?
 
Fiew things to think about, maybe..:cigar:

The main argument people have about the tonewood is that it vibrates, right? right..

At the same time that is main mistake, because everything in this world vibrates, but don't necessarily makes the sound. that we can

The Earth vibrates but we can't hear it. The bridges, the trees, your hair..
Our body vibrates, but we can't detect it.
It's a matter of human biology and physic.

Just as people can not fly, so they can not even hear some frequencies, no matter how big ears (or head) (or money) they have, right? Right..

As for the guitar, it isn't the wood that transfers vibrations to the strings - it is the opposite.
The strings are the most important part of our guitars (pianos, and fishing rods..).
You first hit the string (even with a very light touch), and it vibrates.
If you'd want to make string vibrates in a way that you hit the wood first - you'd have to hit it very, very hard.

A simple fact that strings are transfering vibrations to the wood around them has nothing to do with the colour of their tone, and in respect of "sustain" the wood itself can only make the sustain lasting shorter, because when we have two things (the strings and the wood) that are vibrating in different way, and can only have the opposite effect where one vibration fights another one. Like two waves fighting eachother and crushing.

You see, the construction of a guitar and the way it's put together has way more impact on the sound itself then the kind of wood. Try to separate the bolt on neck of the body just a little and listen what's happening. On the other hand, try to cut off a chunk of wood from the body (with the neck firmly attached where it was) and listen what is not happening.

When people are comparing two guitars (in order to hear some difference) must have in mind the must important point. And it's not the wood, it's the place where strings touch the guitar (nut slots, saddles, string trees, tuners)

Only a fraction of a millimeter in the nut slot is sufficient to kill the vibrations, or to make a string vibrating more freely.
Position of guitar (keep in mind the gravity), number of windings on the tuning machine (tension of the string) etc...these are all micro details but with great impact on the strings.

But those details are not so obvious, in realtion to the wood which we can feel with our body and immediately think that everything happens there.
But It's like an illusion, because even our body leaning on guitar has its part in whole "construction" matter and plays some role there, especially with acoustic instruments.

Hold the body of the bass against your ear and pluck a string to hear how it interacts with the vibration of the string.
 
Says the guy that has posted, deleted, re-posted, deleted (many audio samples),... all the while, admitting to having hearing issues and got pi$$ed about said responses to said postings and swore to never post audio samples ever again.

Yet, now has input/intellect on what makes an instrument, any instrument, sonically different/superior?
 
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This guy is not the best source in your video's link. He got into some trouble a while back with trying to scam YouTube and/or another website --in short he is toxic and it would be like Darrin Huff using his expertise to turn Gibson around.

That aside this video is also about as scientifically rigorous as the Necronomicon Ex Mortis. Basically, one person starting with an opinion and then sharing some line art to say he is correct with the same sort of science flat earthers like to espouse.
I don't know anything about your allegations against this person, and even if true they are irrelevant to what we're talking about. You said nothing that refutes him. However....

There are plenty more makers who believe that the wood makes a difference. The ones above are just the ones I have personally talked to about this.
Thanks for the explanation, I'm actually not in a "camp" as it were. And I am not discounting luthiery, or science, in fact I am making instruments myself, and am well aware of the basic characteristics of tonewoods.

But of course, an appeal to authority, even if the name is Sadowsky, is not an argument. It doesn't matter how many famous names are on the list. Let's not toss out centuries of critical thinking : )

I think your argument about the bridge affecting frequencies is a good one, and the existence of dead spots and fat-fingers on headstocks is empirical. But headstock density affecting dead spots is not in question here, we are talking about body wood specifically.

Are you (or anyone else) aware of any scientific evidence that the surface a metal bridge is mounted on can specifically and repeatedly be correlated to tonal aspects? I would really like to see that.
 
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The fellow who played bass for The Police claims he switched to bass, because of the feeling of the instrument, more vibration that you can feel.

Ant that's exactly where the placebo lies.
As I said, the fact something vibrates doesn't mean it makes the sound we can hear.

It's like somebody claims that if he puts a table cloth on the table, it should change the taste of the food itself..
 
and now........No. 1.....The Larch..................The Larch........

The+larch+how+to+recognize+different+types+of+trees+from_b667ce_5290832.png
 
on the top of a guitar

Oh.

Please, please, master of vernacular and timbre. Explain why the "top" influences/matters.

Are you talking about the top of the musical scale? Or the "top" of the instrument? Again, define
"top".

Yes, I know the difference of what up/down regarding the musical scale means.

So, please clarify. Master of sonics, and vernacular.
 
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I don't know anything about your allegations against this person, and even if true they are irrelevant to what we're talking about. You said nothing that refutes him.
Okay. The problem I have with your argument is you don't support anything, but just want refutation of your opinion. You have not presented any evidence at all. Even theoretical physics (this is far from that), has to be supported by experimental physics. Otherwise, we would all be learning string theory instead of quantum mechanics. So I will summarize the video. I tried to break up the video into key portions.

I will share my actual thoughts and not critiques after the last set of breaks (====...).

================================
Will opens and starts introducing the topic saying that the physics is not debatable. "To disagree with this is to disagree with math..." He is proving everything with "the math behind it" requiring me to watch a 55 minute video in its entirety before I disagree with it. Physics is always debatable. That is how science works.

================================
At 2:28, he promises to go over 7 equations written on the board behind him. I will do it much more quickly for you.

The first isn't so much an equation since it is lacking half the equation: V/lambda*f = 1. Or more sensibly written: V = lambda * f. This states that the speed of a wave is equal to the wavelength times the frequency of the wave.

The second equation is V = sqrt(T/mu). This says that the velocity of a wave in a string, for example, is dependent on the tension (T) of the string and the amount of mass (mu) the string has per length. A more massive string lowers the velocity. A tighter string increases the velocity.

Third equation mu = m/L. This just defines mu as mass per length.

Fourth equation lambda = 2*L. This states that the fundamental wavelength is twice the length of the vibrating string in a guitar-like instrument. There are also first harmonics which are wavelengths = L, second harmonics which are wavelengths = 2/3*L, fourth harmonics = 2/4*L, etc. In full, the equation should have been written lambda = 2*L/n. The solution proposed at the beginning is for one node or the fundamental note.

The fifth equation is the same equation as number two solved for T: T=V^2*mu.

The sixth equation is f = v/lambda which is the first equation solved for f.

The seventh equation takes the sixth equation and substitutes the complete equation for the fourth equation in place of lambda. Definitively proving that the fundamental note produced is determined by the length of the string, the mass of the string, and the tension of the string.

I believe this could have all been written as one equation. But I get that he is trying to break it down in simple terms.

================================
Through the first 20 minutes, he explains what a wave is, and what the basic terms are.

================================
At 27:45 he makes a false claim that the harmonics "do not affect the frequency at all." He is ignoring that when you play an A, for example, other nonfundamental waves are also formed. On an open A, the loudest of these are an E and a C#. He goes onto say that the body removes some of the string energy to dampen the sound resulting in lower sustain. He ignores that the body has a fundamental series of notes. If you tap on your guitar body or neck, you can hear the fundamental notes. In this entire section, he is confusing the fundamental note with the tone of the instrument. The tone is the fundamental note plus all of the nonfundamental notes minus all of the dampened notes from the rest of the guitar.

================================
At 35:00 he starts making some claims about the string material and the tone. It is an example of why his arguments don't hold weight for the effects of the body wood. He insinuates that stainless steel strings are brighter because you alter tension when compared to nickel strings. Steel strings are brighter because they different fundamental notes. From his explanation, a nickel string would be producing an A at 110hz. A stainless steel string would be producing an A at 110hz. They would just be the same. Using the equations above:
sqrt(T/mu) = lambda * f
f = lambda/sqrt(T/mu)

lambda is the same in both cases since it is twice the scale length. The materials are different with different density and mass per length. So the tension is modified until both strings make an A note. This scientifically and mathematically proves that an A on any string will sound the same as long as it can be picked up by the magnetic pickup. You just can't argue with it. Except this is an over simplified explanation that produces an incorrect result.

================================
Around 35:30, he starts spouting off some false information about metal alloys and covalent bonds. It sounds smart, but a covalent bond is what occurs between nonmetals like Oxygen and Carbon when they share electrons. Metals are joined by metallic bonds with a "sea of vallence electrons." It is really not pertinent, except to discredit the scientific rigor of this video.

================================
Around 48:00, he makes his claim that it is impossible because he says so. He ignores that his equations are the same for an acoustic guitar as an electric guitar but claims that there is no way for the solid body guitar to change the sound without any real mathematical or physics evidence for this claim.

================================
At 50:00, he makes a dumb claim that sound cannot cancel out. He doesn't really understand how a wave works here. The wave he is talking about is a transverse or standing wave, but he is treating the wave as if it moves like a longitudinal wave. The waves just have to be identical except out of phase, and they will cancel. Here is an example with sound from YouTube explaining active noise cancellation.


================================
Sound test will finally occur at 54 minutes. This is also not really scientific. They all sound a little different. The test is only single blinded. This is in effect what empiric evidence looks like. You listen to the track and judge for yourself. He doesn't blind the listener, player, and scientist. No count of right or wrong answers is given. No statistical analysis is performed. The test is not repeated multiple times.

========MY THOUGHTS===============
The problem with this entire video: if this argument was the entire case, an acoustic guitar would also produce sound independent of the woods it was built out of. The string vibrates at a note. The body of the guitar would vibrate at that same note and get amplified with the same note. You pluck an E on a guitar no matter what it is made out of, it will produce an E. Acoustic guitars will amplify the sound through the construction of the body. The electric guitar amplifies the note through magnetic pickups and an amplifier. But no matter what, the note played would be the same E. Except that isn't really true. If this was the case, my guitars would all sound the same when I play the same note regardless of string type, pickup type, body wood, plucking technique, etc. I know this is untrue from experience.

A wave has harmonics that also play through the vibrating string as he stated. These are what give the sound tone. So you pluck an E and you will also have that note colored by the natural harmonics B and G# among others. Even though you are playing a single note, if you look at a spectrogram, you will see other frequencies besides the fundamental note. We all agree on this (even Will). In an infinitely rigid system, this would be the pretty much all that produces sound.

A guitar is, however, a coupled system. The string and guitar are joined together. Both vibrate together. An open E string tends to want to vibrate at a given frequency. If you hit the guitar, it will vibrate as a result, and you can hear it. If you hit the string, the guitar vibrates. The coupled system means some of the vibrations will be dampened or amplified depending on the composition of the guitar.

A perfect example of this coupling causing a noticeable dampening is the dead note. This occurs when you play a note on the guitar at a fret where a high conductance for that note is. Basically, the guitar is able to absorb energy at that note, leading to rapid decay of the note. Invalid Link Removedis an article showing how this is affected by the fretboard material in an electric guitar model (ebony versus rosewood).

Other examples that I have experienced that prove that more than the string in between the nut and the saddles matters:

1) If you tap your guitar while plugged in, you will hear the vibrating body translated into sound as the strings start vibrating.
2) I have an Ibanez that needs the strings by the tuners dampened, or I hear them vibrate in the amplifier. They rattle. That rattling translates into vibrations in the strings over the pickups leading to sounds. So if my guitar body is also vibrating, then it would also change the sound slightly.
3) I had a poorly setup bass where the strings vibrated before the fretted note. You could hear it in the amplifier even though it was on the other side of the fretted note. This is because it vibrated the neck of the guitar enough to vibrate the string.

In all three of these examples, the sound happens because the body/neck/headstock is vibrating. None of this means that tone wood sounds better or that cardboard sounds awful. It just means that the vibrating body the bridge and nut are attached to will change the sound in some way.

The problem with Will's explanation really comes down to an incomplete understanding of the physics. The guitar is a coupled system with more complex equations because of the interaction between the body of the guitar and the string. Someone shared an article with these types of equations in them previously. These equations are much more complicated. I understand why he avoided them. All he demonstrates after nearly an hour is that the fundamental note (like when I use my metronome to play an A for me to tune to) can be determined by the length of the string, mass per length of the string, and the tension of the string.

His equations are all exactly the same for an acoustic guitar. In order to use math and equations to demonstrate that the body and neck wood did not matter, he would take the coupled vibrating string system equations and show that only the string matters for the vibration. This is not true.

Thank you to anyone that read all of this junk.
 
Okay. The problem I have with your argument is you don't support anything, but just want refutation of your opinion. You have not presented any evidence at all. Even theoretical physics (this is far from that), has to be supported by experimental physics. Otherwise, we would all be learning string theory instead of quantum mechanics. So I will summarize the video. I tried to break up the video into key portions.

I will share my actual thoughts and not critiques after the last set of breaks (====...).

================================
Will opens and starts introducing the topic saying that the physics is not debatable. "To disagree with this is to disagree with math..." He is proving everything with "the math behind it" requiring me to watch a 55 minute video in its entirety before I disagree with it. Physics is always debatable. That is how science works.

================================
At 2:28, he promises to go over 7 equations written on the board behind him. I will do it much more quickly for you.

The first isn't so much an equation since it is lacking half the equation: V/lambda*f = 1. Or more sensibly written: V = lambda * f. This states that the speed of a wave is equal to the wavelength times the frequency of the wave.

The second equation is V = sqrt(T/mu). This says that the velocity of a wave in a string, for example, is dependent on the tension (T) of the string and the amount of mass (mu) the string has per length. A more massive string lowers the velocity. A tighter string increases the velocity.

Third equation mu = m/L. This just defines mu as mass per length.

Fourth equation lambda = 2*L. This states that the fundamental wavelength is twice the length of the vibrating string in a guitar-like instrument. There are also first harmonics which are wavelengths = L, second harmonics which are wavelengths = 2/3*L, fourth harmonics = 2/4*L, etc. In full, the equation should have been written lambda = 2*L/n. The solution proposed at the beginning is for one node or the fundamental note.

The fifth equation is the same equation as number two solved for T: T=V^2*mu.

The sixth equation is f = v/lambda which is the first equation solved for f.

The seventh equation takes the sixth equation and substitutes the complete equation for the fourth equation in place of lambda. Definitively proving that the fundamental note produced is determined by the length of the string, the mass of the string, and the tension of the string.

I believe this could have all been written as one equation. But I get that he is trying to break it down in simple terms.

================================
Through the first 20 minutes, he explains what a wave is, and what the basic terms are.

================================
At 27:45 he makes a false claim that the harmonics "do not affect the frequency at all." He is ignoring that when you play an A, for example, other nonfundamental waves are also formed. On an open A, the loudest of these are an E and a C#. He goes onto say that the body removes some of the string energy to dampen the sound resulting in lower sustain. He ignores that the body has a fundamental series of notes. If you tap on your guitar body or neck, you can hear the fundamental notes. In this entire section, he is confusing the fundamental note with the tone of the instrument. The tone is the fundamental note plus all of the nonfundamental notes minus all of the dampened notes from the rest of the guitar.

================================
At 35:00 he starts making some claims about the string material and the tone. It is an example of why his arguments don't hold weight for the effects of the body wood. He insinuates that stainless steel strings are brighter because you alter tension when compared to nickel strings. Steel strings are brighter because they different fundamental notes. From his explanation, a nickel string would be producing an A at 110hz. A stainless steel string would be producing an A at 110hz. They would just be the same. Using the equations above:
sqrt(T/mu) = lambda * f
f = lambda/sqrt(T/mu)

lambda is the same in both cases since it is twice the scale length. The materials are different with different density and mass per length. So the tension is modified until both strings make an A note. This scientifically and mathematically proves that an A on any string will sound the same as long as it can be picked up by the magnetic pickup. You just can't argue with it. Except this is an over simplified explanation that produces an incorrect result.

================================
Around 35:30, he starts spouting off some false information about metal alloys and covalent bonds. It sounds smart, but a covalent bond is what occurs between nonmetals like Oxygen and Carbon when they share electrons. Metals are joined by metallic bonds with a "sea of vallence electrons." It is really not pertinent, except to discredit the scientific rigor of this video.

================================
Around 48:00, he makes his claim that it is impossible because he says so. He ignores that his equations are the same for an acoustic guitar as an electric guitar but claims that there is no way for the solid body guitar to change the sound without any real mathematical or physics evidence for this claim.

================================
At 50:00, he makes a dumb claim that sound cannot cancel out. He doesn't really understand how a wave works here. The wave he is talking about is a transverse or standing wave, but he is treating the wave as if it moves like a longitudinal wave. The waves just have to be identical except out of phase, and they will cancel. Here is an example with sound from YouTube explaining active noise cancellation.


================================
Sound test will finally occur at 54 minutes. This is also not really scientific. They all sound a little different. The test is only single blinded. This is in effect what empiric evidence looks like. You listen to the track and judge for yourself. He doesn't blind the listener, player, and scientist. No count of right or wrong answers is given. No statistical analysis is performed. The test is not repeated multiple times.

========MY THOUGHTS===============
The problem with this entire video: if this argument was the entire case, an acoustic guitar would also produce sound independent of the woods it was built out of. The string vibrates at a note. The body of the guitar would vibrate at that same note and get amplified with the same note. You pluck an E on a guitar no matter what it is made out of, it will produce an E. Acoustic guitars will amplify the sound through the construction of the body. The electric guitar amplifies the note through magnetic pickups and an amplifier. But no matter what, the note played would be the same E. Except that isn't really true. If this was the case, my guitars would all sound the same when I play the same note regardless of string type, pickup type, body wood, plucking technique, etc. I know this is untrue from experience.

A wave has harmonics that also play through the vibrating string as he stated. These are what give the sound tone. So you pluck an E and you will also have that note colored by the natural harmonics B and G# among others. Even though you are playing a single note, if you look at a spectrogram, you will see other frequencies besides the fundamental note. We all agree on this (even Will). In an infinitely rigid system, this would be the pretty much all that produces sound.

A guitar is, however, a coupled system. The string and guitar are joined together. Both vibrate together. An open E string tends to want to vibrate at a given frequency. If you hit the guitar, it will vibrate as a result, and you can hear it. If you hit the string, the guitar vibrates. The coupled system means some of the vibrations will be dampened or amplified depending on the composition of the guitar.

A perfect example of this coupling causing a noticeable dampening is the dead note. This occurs when you play a note on the guitar at a fret where a high conductance for that note is. Basically, the guitar is able to absorb energy at that note, leading to rapid decay of the note. Invalid Link Removedis an article showing how this is affected by the fretboard material in an electric guitar model (ebony versus rosewood).

Other examples that I have experienced that prove that more than the string in between the nut and the saddles matters:

1) If you tap your guitar while plugged in, you will hear the vibrating body translated into sound as the strings start vibrating.
2) I have an Ibanez that needs the strings by the tuners dampened, or I hear them vibrate in the amplifier. They rattle. That rattling translates into vibrations in the strings over the pickups leading to sounds. So if my guitar body is also vibrating, then it would also change the sound slightly.
3) I had a poorly setup bass where the strings vibrated before the fretted note. You could hear it in the amplifier even though it was on the other side of the fretted note. This is because it vibrated the neck of the guitar enough to vibrate the string.

In all three of these examples, the sound happens because the body/neck/headstock is vibrating. None of this means that tone wood sounds better or that cardboard sounds awful. It just means that the vibrating body the bridge and nut are attached to will change the sound in some way.

The problem with Will's explanation really comes down to an incomplete understanding of the physics. The guitar is a coupled system with more complex equations because of the interaction between the body of the guitar and the string. Someone shared an article with these types of equations in them previously. These equations are much more complicated. I understand why he avoided them. All he demonstrates after nearly an hour is that the fundamental note (like when I use my metronome to play an A for me to tune to) can be determined by the length of the string, mass per length of the string, and the tension of the string.

His equations are all exactly the same for an acoustic guitar. In order to use math and equations to demonstrate that the body and neck wood did not matter, he would take the coupled vibrating string system equations and show that only the string matters for the vibration. This is not true.

Thank you to anyone that read all of this junk.

Wow. All those words. TL;DR, but you should get a prize.