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Bona improvisation
- Thread starter adri24an
- Start date
I didn't diss bona. Look past what you see to be controversial, and realize that I've said a thousand positive things about richard, and you quoting me on a very specific aspect of his "improvisational skill" - that was what the question was about in the first place- is totally out of context.
it's actually rude of you not to read the entire thread if you're going to comment so damningly on my writing.
I think that richard is one of the most unique voices in music today. He's accomplished the impossible, arriving in the end of the 20th century when almost everything has already been said musically, and coming up with what he has. it's awe inspiring and I respect him more than most people out there for that. Just because his bass playing wasn't the thing I said was unique, why do you have to jump down my throat about it. he didn't do as much homework on improvising as a lot of people out there, I totally stand by that statement. But it was a statement made in reference to a specific question ABOUT HIM IMPROVISING!!! He really does play a lot of the very same material each time he goes to take a solo. there's no disputing that at all. click on 10 random youtube videos of him taking a solo and you'll hear almost the exact same thing. I also stand by the fact that I don't think his strongest voice is as a soloist in a jazz sense. He has so much to offer the music world with the roots of his being - AFRICA! have you heard a groove like it in a while? I know I haven't. it's unique. the bass playing is not always unique in style or harmonic content, but his feel is one of the most unique things there is.
It makes me smile, it makes me dance, and he is one of the few people who has made me cry at a concert. He just sat there and played nylon string guitar and sang his ass off for fifteen minutes and I couldn't hold back the tears. It's one of the most incredible moments I've ever experienced at a live show, and I shall never forget it.
Do you consider any of those aspects of my love and affection for Richards music to be rude? I'm honored to be able to call him somewhat of a friend, to have shared the stage with him, and to have played some of the same gigs as him, and to have learnt a great deal from him over the years.
You can't even go there with Mike Stern with me. not going to accept it. Mike is the kindest human being I have ever met, he's like a father to me, and I have learnt more from him than anyone I've ever met. Why don't you go and hang out with mike and pose some of those questions to him? he's going to tell you that he writes the same three tunes. Minor blues, classical ballard, and a rock tune in E. add a middle eastern vibe to a tune and you've got a mike stern album.
but man, are those three tunes so completely different every time you hear them, in every context. I've played probably close to 200 gigs with mike stern, and yes, he steps on that distortion pedal at a certain time in the solo and all the rest of it. But man, there is more heart going into each note in his solo than into an entire recorded history of some musicians out there. I know this because I know mike, I know his playing, I've been a fan since the first day I started playing the bass, I've shed with mike for 100's of hours over the years. Going to his house every day just play tunes, and work on our music together.
Don't over analyze something so much that you just miss the point and the beauty of it.
Maybe I should just not answer questions like that as they inevitably end up in an abyss of miss communication and quotes taken out of context because people want to build upon something they perceive to be controversial.
Easy,
Janek
it's actually rude of you not to read the entire thread if you're going to comment so damningly on my writing.
I think that richard is one of the most unique voices in music today. He's accomplished the impossible, arriving in the end of the 20th century when almost everything has already been said musically, and coming up with what he has. it's awe inspiring and I respect him more than most people out there for that. Just because his bass playing wasn't the thing I said was unique, why do you have to jump down my throat about it. he didn't do as much homework on improvising as a lot of people out there, I totally stand by that statement. But it was a statement made in reference to a specific question ABOUT HIM IMPROVISING!!! He really does play a lot of the very same material each time he goes to take a solo. there's no disputing that at all. click on 10 random youtube videos of him taking a solo and you'll hear almost the exact same thing. I also stand by the fact that I don't think his strongest voice is as a soloist in a jazz sense. He has so much to offer the music world with the roots of his being - AFRICA! have you heard a groove like it in a while? I know I haven't. it's unique. the bass playing is not always unique in style or harmonic content, but his feel is one of the most unique things there is.
It makes me smile, it makes me dance, and he is one of the few people who has made me cry at a concert. He just sat there and played nylon string guitar and sang his ass off for fifteen minutes and I couldn't hold back the tears. It's one of the most incredible moments I've ever experienced at a live show, and I shall never forget it.
Do you consider any of those aspects of my love and affection for Richards music to be rude? I'm honored to be able to call him somewhat of a friend, to have shared the stage with him, and to have played some of the same gigs as him, and to have learnt a great deal from him over the years.
You can't even go there with Mike Stern with me. not going to accept it. Mike is the kindest human being I have ever met, he's like a father to me, and I have learnt more from him than anyone I've ever met. Why don't you go and hang out with mike and pose some of those questions to him? he's going to tell you that he writes the same three tunes. Minor blues, classical ballard, and a rock tune in E. add a middle eastern vibe to a tune and you've got a mike stern album.
but man, are those three tunes so completely different every time you hear them, in every context. I've played probably close to 200 gigs with mike stern, and yes, he steps on that distortion pedal at a certain time in the solo and all the rest of it. But man, there is more heart going into each note in his solo than into an entire recorded history of some musicians out there. I know this because I know mike, I know his playing, I've been a fan since the first day I started playing the bass, I've shed with mike for 100's of hours over the years. Going to his house every day just play tunes, and work on our music together.
Don't over analyze something so much that you just miss the point and the beauty of it.
Maybe I should just not answer questions like that as they inevitably end up in an abyss of miss communication and quotes taken out of context because people want to build upon something they perceive to be controversial.
Easy,
Janek
- Mar 2, 2006
- 332
- 6
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Sadowsky Basses & Dean Markley Strings
Marcus Miller said a similar thing about Jaco Pastorius' soloing when he discovered that Jaco didn't improvise however composed his solos. So when you listen to Jaco in retrospect, you do hear frequent use of the same motifs, licks, runs, and patterns but that is inherent in many other outstanding players too. Even some of Marcus' thump solos has re-hashed lines and grooves that I even use. Maybe this is one reason why Richard Bona (who studied Jaco very closely) will play a more "composed" solo as opposed to a totally improvised. All of their approaches has helped me find a nice balance of improvised versus stock solos in my search for the perfect solo.
Janek, do you think that perhaps your opinion of that aspect of Richard's playing would differ if you had spent similar time with him that you have with Mike Stern? Admittedly, I have not spent a lot of time checking out Richard or Mike, so I would be happy for you or anyone to call me on this, but I perceive some strong similarities in their improvising. For example, using vocabulary or sonic ideas that they know well at a certain point in a solo for a certain desired effect, perhaps at the cost of a higher level of spontaneity. My experience of Mike Stern live is limited to a gig I saw him on with the Yellowjackets a few months back. I was not the only person left a little dry by Mike's improvising, however the positives outweighed the negatives - his touch and tone on the guitar were absolutely masterful; he was engaging and charismatic; he visibly enjoyed playing and the playing of the other guys (I get tired of players who seem like they couldn't care less about what was going on on stage, regardless of the level of playing); and he played a chordal intro to a ballad that was one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard.
I think the point may be, as Damian Erskine touched on on the first page of this thread, that not everyone has achieved a high level of improvisation or spontaneity. As was said, Coltrane was working til the day he died. It may not be everyone's interest to work towards that level. Richard Bona has things going on (like his groove, which I think just bounces with life) which are far stronger characteristics of his playing than his improvising. That's cool with me - that's not how I conceive of my own music making, but I have respect for that. In my opinion, and yes based on limited experience, so does Mike Stern. Also, to touch on the Jaco thing I think it was the same case - I don't really buy into this whole composed solo/improvised solo argument - to me, Jaco's compositional and arrangement skills outweighed his soloing and many other elements of his bassplaying - which says a lot, as his bass playing was obviously nothing short of masterful.
Janek , Man .
The things you said re Bona's Improvising are in exact quotation in my first post . I did read the 'nice' things you said too , but to me it still reads as a back handed compliment.
Actually I have hung with Stern a little in Australia and as you say , he's a beautiful cat.
I understand why you can't 'go there' or 'accept it' when speaking of Mike because you have an emotional and/or musical connection etc and I think you kind of side stepped a bit by saying that Mike himself says that he only writes 3 tunes ....most writers probably do but the fact remains that Mike plays the same lick about every 16 bars.
I'm not particularly a fan of Bona's solos (only know him from two Zawinul albums) & I'm not particularly anti-lick . But I still think that to say --
"He doesn't have any depth to his improvisational voice" & " hasn't done his homework" is
actually attacking the guy. You could've just said ---yea , he plays that lick a bit too much for my taste. I'd like to think that Bona's done HIS homework , not your homework. I don't see what you said as being "controversial" as you suggest , just rude. I also don't believe I was "over analyzing " to miss "the point & beauty " of what you stated --- Why did I just think of David Brent
I also think that you won't write stuff like that on a public page in a few more years time. Many of us know &/or have played with 'famous' players & have probably heard them say less than complimentary things about other cats but with profile etc comes responsibility . Peace , Steve.
The things you said re Bona's Improvising are in exact quotation in my first post . I did read the 'nice' things you said too , but to me it still reads as a back handed compliment.
Actually I have hung with Stern a little in Australia and as you say , he's a beautiful cat.
I understand why you can't 'go there' or 'accept it' when speaking of Mike because you have an emotional and/or musical connection etc and I think you kind of side stepped a bit by saying that Mike himself says that he only writes 3 tunes ....most writers probably do but the fact remains that Mike plays the same lick about every 16 bars.
I'm not particularly a fan of Bona's solos (only know him from two Zawinul albums) & I'm not particularly anti-lick . But I still think that to say --
"He doesn't have any depth to his improvisational voice" & " hasn't done his homework" is
actually attacking the guy. You could've just said ---yea , he plays that lick a bit too much for my taste. I'd like to think that Bona's done HIS homework , not your homework. I don't see what you said as being "controversial" as you suggest , just rude. I also don't believe I was "over analyzing " to miss "the point & beauty " of what you stated --- Why did I just think of David Brent
I also think that you won't write stuff like that on a public page in a few more years time. Many of us know &/or have played with 'famous' players & have probably heard them say less than complimentary things about other cats but with profile etc comes responsibility . Peace , Steve.
well if anyone was offended by what I said, I'm sorry. I cannot stand the "lick", very true. cringe every time i hear it, and always just ask the question "why" when i hear it too. I'm sure I will never know the answer.
to address sorax....
Stern does play a lot of the same stuff, sure. but the cabinet of stuff he plays is just way deeper than a lot of guys out there who are really playing the same solo every time like richard does a lot. i don't think my opinion of mike is any different for the amount of time I've spent hanging out with him. i think you can feel the emotion in his playing after just a few notes, and I pretty much remember every gig I played with him specifically because they have been so different. There's always something we come up with, no matter how small, that differs from all the other stuff and just takes it to the next level. Mike is 56 years old, and is searching for new stuff through transcription and a general hunger for checking out any kind of music out there day in and day out, than anyone I've ever met no matter how old. It's absolutely awe inspiring to see that.
He'll call me at 8am to see if I'm awake and if I want to come over and shed yet. Cos he's been up for an hour shedding already. I'll maybe get to his place around 10am, work on music with him for three hours or more, and then have to split. Mike will be there all day, another 5 hrs or more at least. then he'll swim, then I'll get to the gig at the dump that night around 9:30pm and we'll hit until 2 in the morning. The waitresses, all of whom are such lovely people and my great friends, are really trying to close the club cos it's gone way past the end of the gig time and we're still playing. Mike's shouting out ideas, working on new melodies, coming up with new chord changes right there on the gig, and we're there jamming along with him for hours on end.
That, to me, is the greatest inspiration I could ever hope to be close to. a man almost twice my age, having accomplished more than I'm ever going to, still with the need to find new things to play at this stage in his life.
I honestly don't know why we don't discuss topics like this more often in here. Why do we not talk about music? about new ways to learn? about finding things to be inspired by?
I think that's probably why there are very few Mike Stern's and Richard Bona's in the world. because the rest of us are too busy missing the point, and they're completely focussed on what they truly love.
I think I'm in a generation where I can't ignore the influence of technology on my career and therefor spend perhaps a little too much time online. But I hope that I can work even a small percentage as hard as mike and richard do at what I do, and make some sort of difference in my ability to move forward as a musician.
Easy,
Janek
to address sorax....
Stern does play a lot of the same stuff, sure. but the cabinet of stuff he plays is just way deeper than a lot of guys out there who are really playing the same solo every time like richard does a lot. i don't think my opinion of mike is any different for the amount of time I've spent hanging out with him. i think you can feel the emotion in his playing after just a few notes, and I pretty much remember every gig I played with him specifically because they have been so different. There's always something we come up with, no matter how small, that differs from all the other stuff and just takes it to the next level. Mike is 56 years old, and is searching for new stuff through transcription and a general hunger for checking out any kind of music out there day in and day out, than anyone I've ever met no matter how old. It's absolutely awe inspiring to see that.
He'll call me at 8am to see if I'm awake and if I want to come over and shed yet. Cos he's been up for an hour shedding already. I'll maybe get to his place around 10am, work on music with him for three hours or more, and then have to split. Mike will be there all day, another 5 hrs or more at least. then he'll swim, then I'll get to the gig at the dump that night around 9:30pm and we'll hit until 2 in the morning. The waitresses, all of whom are such lovely people and my great friends, are really trying to close the club cos it's gone way past the end of the gig time and we're still playing. Mike's shouting out ideas, working on new melodies, coming up with new chord changes right there on the gig, and we're there jamming along with him for hours on end.
That, to me, is the greatest inspiration I could ever hope to be close to. a man almost twice my age, having accomplished more than I'm ever going to, still with the need to find new things to play at this stage in his life.
I honestly don't know why we don't discuss topics like this more often in here. Why do we not talk about music? about new ways to learn? about finding things to be inspired by?
I think that's probably why there are very few Mike Stern's and Richard Bona's in the world. because the rest of us are too busy missing the point, and they're completely focussed on what they truly love.
I think I'm in a generation where I can't ignore the influence of technology on my career and therefor spend perhaps a little too much time online. But I hope that I can work even a small percentage as hard as mike and richard do at what I do, and make some sort of difference in my ability to move forward as a musician.
Easy,
Janek
Cool. I can see how that would be massively inspiring! And I definitely know what you mean about feeling the emotion.
Tslicebass
Commercial User
Take your time online as an alternative type of practicing.
I've noticed something peculiar about you Janek, you are perhaps one of the most capable persons I've read posts from in Talkbass, when it comes to organizing ideas. Your posts are explicit, even tough sometimes extensive.
That could also relate to the way we organize our "musical speech" and assemble a solo, or deliver licks in the right places.
I for example always struggled with that part of my persona, I'm not very organized and coherent if I'm asked to explore a given concept, and I can see that also happening in the way I play, improvise(badly), and practice my music.
Take your time in TB or the whole "virtual world" out there, as a way of training and improving your theories, the way you put the parts all together, and then grab that and adjust it to the way you deliver your (already excellent!!) musical speech.
p.s.- to be completely on topic, I'm inclined to agree that Bona surprised me much more by his unique "feel" than everything else, thats where the secret of his talent is, even tough there are cats out there that can burst out lightning fast lines over endless changes, I doubt that they would cause the tremendous effect thay his voice and a thumb plucked bass did on the night I saw him live 2 years ago.
I'm a little late on this, but have anyone of you seen the Mike Stern DVD with Bona? Some killin' stuff there. And Dennis Chambers - damn.
Janek, I'm curious if there's some video of you with Stern out there? Would love to see it. Also, who's usually the drummer when you play with him?
Janek, I'm curious if there's some video of you with Stern out there? Would love to see it. Also, who's usually the drummer when you play with him?
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,410
- 9,868
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
these are the only two that are up online I think right now. But I do have a ton of footage that I've shot on the road with him. Maybe I'll upload that to youtube at some point.
Easy,
Janek
Easy,
Janek
Great thread and great read.
Apart from Wayne Shorter Janeck who would you advise checking out as improvisitional heavy weights ?
Apart from Wayne Shorter Janeck who would you advise checking out as improvisitional heavy weights ?
Hi,
Scott Devine of www.scottsbasslessons.com posted a lesson on the 'dreaded' Bona lick... I made a transcription of it, check it out on this thread...
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=674794
Blessings,
Fernando
Scott Devine of www.scottsbasslessons.com posted a lesson on the 'dreaded' Bona lick... I made a transcription of it, check it out on this thread...
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=674794
Blessings,
Fernando
guys I like listening to that improvised music.....
Brian Blade
John Hassell
Brad Melhdau
Nils Petter Molvaer
Keith Jarrett
Airto
Miles
Coltrane....
the list is pretty long.... but most importantly I would go after things that really interest you, and grab your ear. Things that make you want to look deeper into the music.
Easy,
Janek
Brian Blade
John Hassell
Brad Melhdau
Nils Petter Molvaer
Keith Jarrett
Airto
Miles
Coltrane....
the list is pretty long.... but most importantly I would go after things that really interest you, and grab your ear. Things that make you want to look deeper into the music.
Easy,
Janek
I've enjoyed reading this licks v.s originality v.s un-musical. I sorta agree with the whole Bona lick thing... But I secretly love that lick. As do audiences everywhere (and I don't think we should look down on listeners that appreciate a chop-tastic lick, because they don't 'understand' music like we do).
If music is about connecting with an audience, I think Janek and Richard do it in the separate ways. There are two types of audiences, and we reach them in different ways.
Sometimes people need a shred solo
Take a drummer for example. One ballistic solo, and the audience will eat it up! Then on a drum forum page somewhere, we will complain about how un-musical he is (and come on... he is a drummer 
)
Maybe we are all secretly jealous cause he created the lick first
If music is about connecting with an audience, I think Janek and Richard do it in the separate ways. There are two types of audiences, and we reach them in different ways.
Sometimes people need a shred solo
Take a drummer for example. One ballistic solo, and the audience will eat it up! Then on a drum forum page somewhere, we will complain about how un-musical he is (and come on... he is a drummer )Maybe we are all secretly jealous cause he created the lick first
I apologize for resurrecting an older thread, but this one is golden, particularly for those of us obsessed with jazz, and with developing our vocabularies and our personal voices.
As far as Mike Stern's musical vocabulary, Jimmy Haslip told me that Mike is constantly working on new "ideas" (the term "licks" seems too simplistic), and that Mike maintains notebooks he calls "the scrolls", full of these ideas, which would explain in part Mike's deep musical vocabulary. I started doing the same thing as a result of Jimmy's advice, but my notebook is a tad... thinner, so far...
.Incidentally, Marcus Miller also advocates doing something similar. Verbatim from his website FAQ:
"Get a tape recorder and solo into it. You'll probably hear an idea that was almost good. Take that idea and work it out. Shed it in all keys at different tempos. What's cool about this is that you already know that this idea comes naturally to you since you improvised it yourself into the tape recorder, all you have to do is refine it.
Develop a catalogue of your own personal ideas. Play them often. This way, when you're in the middle of a solo, you'll have some launching pads - things that you naturally hear and can get to in order to get going.
Tape everything!"
Develop a catalogue of your own personal ideas. Play them often. This way, when you're in the middle of a solo, you'll have some launching pads - things that you naturally hear and can get to in order to get going.
Tape everything!"
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