oh and by the way... I also really dig Bona's voice more than his bass soloing. what a beautiful, beautiful voice. compositionally he's great too, and I love when he's playing bass to the song. not to say I don't dig his solos, but they're not the number 1 thing for me
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Bona improvisation
- Thread starter adri24an
- Start date
Janek, Obviously you are also a very *patient* man, judging by how you react and don't react to guys like pLee.
It's such an honor. I, for one, appreciate the time you put out on this forum. I read it always and try and absorb everything.
It's such an honor. I, for one, appreciate the time you put out on this forum. I read it always and try and absorb everything.
- Nov 2, 2007
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- 41
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: TC Electronic Amps, Ernie Ball Strings, Monocases
Ok, our TB friend Tslicebass has transcribed the breaks that Bona plays over "Hong Kong Breeze" from Larry Coryell Album "Spaces Revisited" (no need to say that Bona plays his favorite lick in almost all the breaks...). I haven't taken a thorough look at it yet, but it seems to be ok. If someone is interested, you can download the pdf in this link:
Tslicebass
Tslicebass
- Jun 15, 2005
- 160
- 74
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Skjold basses,Zon basses,Aguilar,D'Addario,GruvGear
I love this place! I agree that you are a patient man, Janek and hope that people can keep a dialogue going and keep the rest to themselves. Anonymity can lead to people say things just because they can get away with it and can really ruin a forum. This is a dialogue and there is no wrong or right when it comes to Art. and for the record.
Janek, you are definitely one of my favorite soloists on the instrument these days (and I bought that Hanon book of piano exercises. WHOOO. keep me workin'!). I just wanted to chime in because it sounded a bit like it was going in a bashing direction.
Janek, you are definitely one of my favorite soloists on the instrument these days (and I bought that Hanon book of piano exercises. WHOOO. keep me workin'!). I just wanted to chime in because it sounded a bit like it was going in a bashing direction.
Not to get away from Bona but, I can't begin say how much working with Hanon has changed my playing. I've been using it for about 8-9 months now on both electric and upright bass and it has helped me grow greatly. Aside from the technique, I'm finding myself thinking about playing lines more and less about bass tricks.
I believe that we are very blessed to have two very talented, schooled and experienced players like Janek and Damian take time out of there busy lifes to contribute to the art and science of bass on this forum! Watching both Janek's past clinic on Bass Player TV and Damian's video on GospelChops.com, I have been personally enlightened and motivated to continue to strive for musical excellence. Damian, you Trios CD is off the hook!!!! Thank you very much, gentlemen!!!!
small minds talk about people....BIG MINDS talk about ideas....
A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste! cool:
small minds talk about people....BIG MINDS talk about ideas....
A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste! cool:
Tslicebass
Commercial User
Hey all
I just wanted to chime in here real quick. First off, let me just say to Janek I really enjoy your cd and have dug listening to the podcasts. You write some beautiful music man...i had that cd in my car for about 3 months straight...and that is where i get most my listening done nowadays. Also to Damian, i really dig your playing as well. I have actually been playing with Tony Do Rosario here in Chicago who i guess went to high school with you Damian...small world huh.
Back on topic. I did transcribe the breaks from "Hong Kong Breeze" which is off the Larry Coryell album Spaces Revisited which is one of my fav albums. And yes richard does play the now infamous lick on almost every break. However i just want to point out that the link above to the pdf was just the "lick" excerpts from the solo breaks and not the entire solo breaks. I didnt have time to write out the whole breaks.
Thanks
I just wanted to chime in here real quick. First off, let me just say to Janek I really enjoy your cd and have dug listening to the podcasts. You write some beautiful music man...i had that cd in my car for about 3 months straight...and that is where i get most my listening done nowadays. Also to Damian, i really dig your playing as well. I have actually been playing with Tony Do Rosario here in Chicago who i guess went to high school with you Damian...small world huh.
Back on topic. I did transcribe the breaks from "Hong Kong Breeze" which is off the Larry Coryell album Spaces Revisited which is one of my fav albums. And yes richard does play the now infamous lick on almost every break. However i just want to point out that the link above to the pdf was just the "lick" excerpts from the solo breaks and not the entire solo breaks. I didnt have time to write out the whole breaks.
Thanks
- Nov 2, 2007
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- 41
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: TC Electronic Amps, Ernie Ball Strings, Monocases
Hi Janek,
This is a very interesting topic. I'm curious, your musical vocabulary is enormous, and yet I also tend to hear certain licks that you lean to, mind you, I don't hear them repeated over and over in every solo. For example, you are fond of a particular lick that ends in an aug 5 triad moved down chromatically. This lick is on your cd, on the bass player clinics, and on a few youtube videos. I'm curious as to the statement that you are making with this lick. For example, is it the go to "grand finale" thing, impressing the girls, etc? Are you legitimately hearing that phrase "in the moment"? What I like, is that when I hear it, I know it is you. Santana, Bona, Stern...they've all got theirs. I don't know too many musicians without their share of them. In regards to Bona, at first I cringed when I heard it, but the more I hear the lick in different contexts, the more I'm knocked out by the timing of the lick. Check out his use of this notorious lick in the youtube Jaco Big Band videos. His improvisation doesn't seem to stem as much from harmony as it does from groove. Regarding musical enlightenment, yes, this is my goal too. I want to execute ideas heard in the moment perfectly or not. Ray Brown claims he got it towards the end of his life, though he didn't quite articulate in this way. So, to keep this conversation going, what is the point of these licks? Why work up any of them? Which musicians do you feel execute "in the moment" playing best?
This is a very interesting topic. I'm curious, your musical vocabulary is enormous, and yet I also tend to hear certain licks that you lean to, mind you, I don't hear them repeated over and over in every solo. For example, you are fond of a particular lick that ends in an aug 5 triad moved down chromatically. This lick is on your cd, on the bass player clinics, and on a few youtube videos. I'm curious as to the statement that you are making with this lick. For example, is it the go to "grand finale" thing, impressing the girls, etc? Are you legitimately hearing that phrase "in the moment"? What I like, is that when I hear it, I know it is you. Santana, Bona, Stern...they've all got theirs. I don't know too many musicians without their share of them. In regards to Bona, at first I cringed when I heard it, but the more I hear the lick in different contexts, the more I'm knocked out by the timing of the lick. Check out his use of this notorious lick in the youtube Jaco Big Band videos. His improvisation doesn't seem to stem as much from harmony as it does from groove. Regarding musical enlightenment, yes, this is my goal too. I want to execute ideas heard in the moment perfectly or not. Ray Brown claims he got it towards the end of his life, though he didn't quite articulate in this way. So, to keep this conversation going, what is the point of these licks? Why work up any of them? Which musicians do you feel execute "in the moment" playing best?
- Nov 2, 2007
- 80
- 0
- 41
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: TC Electronic Amps, Ernie Ball Strings, Monocases
great post Peter!
can you post here some youtube video with janek's lick you are talking about?
thanks!
1:56 to 2:00...Haven't seen this before, but I feel embarrassed sifting through all that fresh stuff to find this lick. Janek is bound by very little if anything on the bass.
People seem to be anti-"lick". IMO, there's nothing wrong with playing a sound you know, to help settle yourself into a solo, or if it's a great sound that you know is musically appropriate and will just sound great. Sure, when you start playing it in every solo it becomes a bit ridiculous, but having a vocabulary is a hugely important thing.
- Nov 2, 2007
- 80
- 0
- 41
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: TC Electronic Amps, Ernie Ball Strings, Monocases
exactly! licks and sequences are very useful improvising resources, when you don't limitate your solos playing them over and over again...
wow, a lot to get to so here goes.....
peterchampange seems to have asked the most questions here so I'll try and focus in on a few of them.
the first would be about the use of augmented triads in my playing. It's a lick yes. do I think about it as a lick? no. does there come a point in the solo where I think I have to play that lick to make some sort of climax? no. I doing think there is any point in a solo where I think about anything. Those triads happen to be a part of my language so much so that they may come out more than other things. But you nailed it right there. What you said you liked about that phrase is that when you hear it you know it's me. i couldn't ask for much more than that. When western music is based upon the same 12 notes and I can play a combination of those that signify to you that I'm the human being behind them, then I have accomplished something towards being a voice within music. And when I can start to combine language with certain sonic qualities that make a person unique then I will on the right track. It's a constant work in motion, and I might never accomplish it as long as I live. I am certainly hearing anything I play in the moment to answer that part of your question. One thing I have come to understand is how to play in the moment, and how to let go of all pre conceived ideas before playing a solo. Of course you will be able to identify "licks" as they're being called here, but everything you hear is a reaction to what is going on around me combined with musical thoughts and ideas happening in my head.
It's all about honesty. And you can't be honest as an improvisor if you have everything mapped out, or if you're reciting the same (and I mean really the same as in our subject matter for this entire thread) stuff one night after the next. John Coltrane would have ideas he was working on, and would work on them through a one week engagement at a jazz club he was playing. You might go and see him on the first night and think that it sucked becaure he may have been working out something new on the bandstand. You could have gone each night for a week and heard very similar things in his playing. But you would have heard developement and forward motion. I never saw trane myself due to my age, and late coming to jazz. But I have studied hundreds of bootlegs of his concerts and heard this for myself. He wouldn't just develop motifs in one solo, he would develop them over the course of days or weeks. Truly in the moment, and one of the greatest jazz musicians to ever live, but still using things that you might call licks. I hate to think of them like that. I think richard's phrase is a lick. and it's used to death. trane, not so much. his entire career was a development. I haven't heard richard do anything new in 10 years. But then again, i haven't heard many bass players do anything new either. Marcus, vic, Stanley, any of those guys. They're comfortable where they are, they make more money than any of us can dream of, and so the artistic vision of their youth slows down into being comfortable and making the most of what they have done before. It takes a strong willed human being to constantly evolve as an artist, and this leads me to the next part of your question.
"which musicians do you feel execute "in the moment" playing the best?"
There's a name at the top of the list that has been there for his entire career.
Wayne Shorter. from blakey, to the classic miles quintet, the solo career on bluenote records in the 60's, to weather report, to the fusion bands with gary willis or john patitucci in the 80's/90's, to one of the most cutting edge improvising ensembles of the past 10 years with Brian Blade, JP, and Danilo Perez. His career has been constantly evolving. That is the child like innocence that exists in Wayne's soul. He is constantly searching, and i think there is nothing like that when it comes to honesty. He takes you places musically that you didn't know exist, and for him that's just the very tip of the iceburg. If you check out some of the recent live recordings with Wayne's quartet and really dig into and understand it, you'll never want to see another Jaco big band video with richard bona or any of the other people who play with that band.
I pose this question to anyone who might be reading.
Why would you want to see anyone try and play like Jaco (or anyone else for that matter) when it was already done 30 years ago?
The human ear takes time to adjust to new things. This we know. But how will it ever adjust to anything new if people are so hung up on richard playing like jaco? or some young kid who can play like victor? or some older dude who can play like marcus?
I was at last week's bassplayer live event to pay tribute to Lee Sklar and Tony Levin as they received their lifetime acheivment awards from the magazine. I played with Tony on a paul simon tune he had recorded in the 70's I believe from the album one trick pony, and then the song played for Lee was billy cobhams "stratus" that lee had played the famous bass line on. Now, that was the concert in the evening. But all day long there were booths on one floor and clinics on another. Some of the clinics were fantastic. I got to meet and hang out with Jimmy Earl who's groove I've been a long time fan of. I saw Willis, Matt Garrison, and the incredible Andrew Gouche whom I've been very fortunate to become friends with over the past couple of years. All of which was incredible, not to mention Tony and Lee giving seperate clinics that I wish could have gone on for hours more.
now as soon as you got down to the general public level at the vendor booths it was over. there wasn't a single piece of music played in that room whenever I walked in there. All I heard were the obligitary NAMM show marcus miller and victor wooten licks, thunderously loud, and accompanied by the person playing looking around the room to see who was watching. It was a very sad state of affairs when so many ( I think around 800) of the countries bass players got together and that's all they could come up with. Now I lived here and been in this scene for some 9 years, and it hasn't changed a bit. NAMM doesn't change, bass day doesn't change, and neither do the vast majority of what young players are still copying. So when someone as influential as Richard Bona comes along, with superstar status, and the ability to make changes in the way the instrument and the music is heard, and all you hear is Jaco with way more african influence, and the same two or three licks I think it's sad.
He has so much to offer, and is so creative that he could be making albums that blew people's mind and pushed the musical envelope. Transcending his instrument, genre, race, religion. I don't hear it. Maybe we will. I very much hope so.
Easy,
Janek
peterchampange seems to have asked the most questions here so I'll try and focus in on a few of them.
the first would be about the use of augmented triads in my playing. It's a lick yes. do I think about it as a lick? no. does there come a point in the solo where I think I have to play that lick to make some sort of climax? no. I doing think there is any point in a solo where I think about anything. Those triads happen to be a part of my language so much so that they may come out more than other things. But you nailed it right there. What you said you liked about that phrase is that when you hear it you know it's me. i couldn't ask for much more than that. When western music is based upon the same 12 notes and I can play a combination of those that signify to you that I'm the human being behind them, then I have accomplished something towards being a voice within music. And when I can start to combine language with certain sonic qualities that make a person unique then I will on the right track. It's a constant work in motion, and I might never accomplish it as long as I live. I am certainly hearing anything I play in the moment to answer that part of your question. One thing I have come to understand is how to play in the moment, and how to let go of all pre conceived ideas before playing a solo. Of course you will be able to identify "licks" as they're being called here, but everything you hear is a reaction to what is going on around me combined with musical thoughts and ideas happening in my head.
It's all about honesty. And you can't be honest as an improvisor if you have everything mapped out, or if you're reciting the same (and I mean really the same as in our subject matter for this entire thread) stuff one night after the next. John Coltrane would have ideas he was working on, and would work on them through a one week engagement at a jazz club he was playing. You might go and see him on the first night and think that it sucked becaure he may have been working out something new on the bandstand. You could have gone each night for a week and heard very similar things in his playing. But you would have heard developement and forward motion. I never saw trane myself due to my age, and late coming to jazz. But I have studied hundreds of bootlegs of his concerts and heard this for myself. He wouldn't just develop motifs in one solo, he would develop them over the course of days or weeks. Truly in the moment, and one of the greatest jazz musicians to ever live, but still using things that you might call licks. I hate to think of them like that. I think richard's phrase is a lick. and it's used to death. trane, not so much. his entire career was a development. I haven't heard richard do anything new in 10 years. But then again, i haven't heard many bass players do anything new either. Marcus, vic, Stanley, any of those guys. They're comfortable where they are, they make more money than any of us can dream of, and so the artistic vision of their youth slows down into being comfortable and making the most of what they have done before. It takes a strong willed human being to constantly evolve as an artist, and this leads me to the next part of your question.
"which musicians do you feel execute "in the moment" playing the best?"
There's a name at the top of the list that has been there for his entire career.
Wayne Shorter. from blakey, to the classic miles quintet, the solo career on bluenote records in the 60's, to weather report, to the fusion bands with gary willis or john patitucci in the 80's/90's, to one of the most cutting edge improvising ensembles of the past 10 years with Brian Blade, JP, and Danilo Perez. His career has been constantly evolving. That is the child like innocence that exists in Wayne's soul. He is constantly searching, and i think there is nothing like that when it comes to honesty. He takes you places musically that you didn't know exist, and for him that's just the very tip of the iceburg. If you check out some of the recent live recordings with Wayne's quartet and really dig into and understand it, you'll never want to see another Jaco big band video with richard bona or any of the other people who play with that band.
I pose this question to anyone who might be reading.
Why would you want to see anyone try and play like Jaco (or anyone else for that matter) when it was already done 30 years ago?
The human ear takes time to adjust to new things. This we know. But how will it ever adjust to anything new if people are so hung up on richard playing like jaco? or some young kid who can play like victor? or some older dude who can play like marcus?
I was at last week's bassplayer live event to pay tribute to Lee Sklar and Tony Levin as they received their lifetime acheivment awards from the magazine. I played with Tony on a paul simon tune he had recorded in the 70's I believe from the album one trick pony, and then the song played for Lee was billy cobhams "stratus" that lee had played the famous bass line on. Now, that was the concert in the evening. But all day long there were booths on one floor and clinics on another. Some of the clinics were fantastic. I got to meet and hang out with Jimmy Earl who's groove I've been a long time fan of. I saw Willis, Matt Garrison, and the incredible Andrew Gouche whom I've been very fortunate to become friends with over the past couple of years. All of which was incredible, not to mention Tony and Lee giving seperate clinics that I wish could have gone on for hours more.
now as soon as you got down to the general public level at the vendor booths it was over. there wasn't a single piece of music played in that room whenever I walked in there. All I heard were the obligitary NAMM show marcus miller and victor wooten licks, thunderously loud, and accompanied by the person playing looking around the room to see who was watching. It was a very sad state of affairs when so many ( I think around 800) of the countries bass players got together and that's all they could come up with. Now I lived here and been in this scene for some 9 years, and it hasn't changed a bit. NAMM doesn't change, bass day doesn't change, and neither do the vast majority of what young players are still copying. So when someone as influential as Richard Bona comes along, with superstar status, and the ability to make changes in the way the instrument and the music is heard, and all you hear is Jaco with way more african influence, and the same two or three licks I think it's sad.
He has so much to offer, and is so creative that he could be making albums that blew people's mind and pushed the musical envelope. Transcending his instrument, genre, race, religion. I don't hear it. Maybe we will. I very much hope so.
Easy,
Janek
P.S. I rarely use augmented triads in half steps. I love the colour of whole steps that comes with aug triads. And the reference made to the youtube video between 1:56 and 2:00 is wrong. They're not augmented. Someone could transcribe it and tell me what they think it is, I'd be interested to see what people hear that as.
Easy,
Janek
Easy,
Janek
Excellent reply Janek. You touched on some points that were long overdue. Sorry...I am guilty of listening with my eyes again. Diminished (R, b5, bb7) arpeggios moving in minor 3rds. Peace
Peter
Peter
Wow - that was a great reply Janek - very interesting stuff and I do applaud your honest approach to music-making.
But I suppose it comes down to whether you see music as a personal journey for the player or as something to give to and share with an audience?
Obviously it can be both and that would be the "ideal"...?
But often when I go to my local Jazz club - most of the audience are other musicians and often I think - maybe only other musicians appreciate all that is going on here...?
Does your typical audience member who is not a musician and has no grasp of music theory, care about this kind of thing?
It's a difficult question - as you can't really talk to somebody who knows nothing about theory in those terms!
So how can you ask them if they recognise the difference between a series of oft-repeated licks and true spontaneity? In a way - most audience members are actualy looking for something they recognise and can hang onto - as a way into the music - so the licks may be greeted with smiles and warm appreciation; while the spontaneity elicits puzzled grimaces...?
So is it any wonder that as you play more gigs there is huge temptation to go for the recognition rather than the puzzled stare...
But I suppose it comes down to whether you see music as a personal journey for the player or as something to give to and share with an audience?
Obviously it can be both and that would be the "ideal"...?
But often when I go to my local Jazz club - most of the audience are other musicians and often I think - maybe only other musicians appreciate all that is going on here...?
Does your typical audience member who is not a musician and has no grasp of music theory, care about this kind of thing?
It's a difficult question - as you can't really talk to somebody who knows nothing about theory in those terms!
So how can you ask them if they recognise the difference between a series of oft-repeated licks and true spontaneity? In a way - most audience members are actualy looking for something they recognise and can hang onto - as a way into the music - so the licks may be greeted with smiles and warm appreciation; while the spontaneity elicits puzzled grimaces...?
So is it any wonder that as you play more gigs there is huge temptation to go for the recognition rather than the puzzled stare...
Peter.....
still not the right shape or sound..... the minor third motion is right, but the nots of the chord shapes are not.....
Bruce,
you can look at it in a few different lights I think. when a player finds something that they know will work to get an audience applauding every night then yes, they will hold on to that and use it as a security blanket. But the challenge is to be creating new phrases every night that an audience can latch onto that are just as easy to digest as the one or two licks that have become comfortable. That is true honesty. Showing up night after night and creating something new to say that doesn't leave an audience baffled.
Imagine if you and I were to hang out for a few nights in a row, and all I talked about each night was some funny story about getting drunk, falling asleep on the subway, and waking up the next day surrounding by wall street types in business suits going to work. it might be mildly amusing or even funny the first time I tell it, with the right delivery and presentation. But if I told you that same story night after night after night, you'd ask me to talk about something else or get lost. It's no different with music. Every time I walk onto that stage I'm communicating something with the audience, and I'm not about to cheat them out of a performance by communicating something identical to a previous show they might have been at.
Being able to do this comes from having the technical ability to execute any new ideas you might have, as well as soaking up the language of improvised music from the time you wake in the morning to the time you sleep. Constantly asking yourself questions as to how you might be able to search for something new today.
It's a life's work, a commitment to the music, and a respect for those around you who are listening. With the right delivery and performance you can serve some of the most complex harmonic language up to an audience that has never heard jazz before, and they will understand everything you play.
You just have to play from the heart and be honest, that's all there is to it.
Easy,
Janek
still not the right shape or sound..... the minor third motion is right, but the nots of the chord shapes are not.....
Bruce,
you can look at it in a few different lights I think. when a player finds something that they know will work to get an audience applauding every night then yes, they will hold on to that and use it as a security blanket. But the challenge is to be creating new phrases every night that an audience can latch onto that are just as easy to digest as the one or two licks that have become comfortable. That is true honesty. Showing up night after night and creating something new to say that doesn't leave an audience baffled.
Imagine if you and I were to hang out for a few nights in a row, and all I talked about each night was some funny story about getting drunk, falling asleep on the subway, and waking up the next day surrounding by wall street types in business suits going to work. it might be mildly amusing or even funny the first time I tell it, with the right delivery and presentation. But if I told you that same story night after night after night, you'd ask me to talk about something else or get lost. It's no different with music. Every time I walk onto that stage I'm communicating something with the audience, and I'm not about to cheat them out of a performance by communicating something identical to a previous show they might have been at.
Being able to do this comes from having the technical ability to execute any new ideas you might have, as well as soaking up the language of improvised music from the time you wake in the morning to the time you sleep. Constantly asking yourself questions as to how you might be able to search for something new today.
It's a life's work, a commitment to the music, and a respect for those around you who are listening. With the right delivery and performance you can serve some of the most complex harmonic language up to an audience that has never heard jazz before, and they will understand everything you play.
You just have to play from the heart and be honest, that's all there is to it.
Easy,
Janek
- Nov 2, 2007
- 80
- 0
- 41
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: TC Electronic Amps, Ernie Ball Strings, Monocases
i heard Ab B F Ab - F Ab D F - ...
but if you say that it's not that i suppose that it might be Ab B E Ab - F Ab Db F - ...
am i wrong?
now you've got it.
it's major triads in their second inversion (basically with the third on top) played in minor thirds over a V chord.
over G7 for instance the leading notes in the top of the chords would be Ab, B, D, and F. with the triads voiced underneath them.
This is, however, only one of thousands of things you can do with this tonality. So I would take this small fragment and develop it as much as you can throughout the instrument.
Easy,
Janek
it's major triads in their second inversion (basically with the third on top) played in minor thirds over a V chord.
over G7 for instance the leading notes in the top of the chords would be Ab, B, D, and F. with the triads voiced underneath them.
This is, however, only one of thousands of things you can do with this tonality. So I would take this small fragment and develop it as much as you can throughout the instrument.
Easy,
Janek
